Several people found it necessary to argue down white supremacy. Then when I respond thoughtfully, they keep going on. But then, instead of calling it what it is, I'm supposed to keep coming up with all of these ways to gently discuss their willful ignorance, seemingly forever. But when I say How dare you, it's bullying. While we are talking about life and death. Bunch of passive-aggressive wimps if you ask me. Try standing up for someone who isn't racist next time.
The thing is, amongst my LGBT buddies 'bitch' is used all the time as a compliment or term of endearment. I understand that there are maybe problems with that and it's why I apologized but I thought this was a thing that people were at least aware of. I don't think it is common practice anywhere to call someone a racist douche as a compliment. The fact that you are pushing on 'bitch' as a language literal kinda sounds a lot like the logic that people use to do things like hate people who speak Spanish because they don't understand it. It's happened before on this board. Language is complicated. I think people are aware, but everyone forgets, including me. That all said, 'racist douche' and a lot of other things you said were pretty straightforward.
I didn't say "saying racist" is name calling. And I didn't say "discussing racism" is name calling. And I didn't say "discussing white supremecy" is name calling. And I didn't say, "you should just smile and nod at your racist aunt because it's impolite to call someone a racist."
What I did equate was "calling someone a racist" and "calling someone a bad name," and I totally understand how claiming that equivalence (especially using the simplistic language "bad name") could seem horriblly inappropriate. But to be clear, again, I was referring to the term "racist" in the context of arguing that a single, individual person is racist (or, in this case, your argument that every single, specific, individual U.S. voter is racist), and I was questioning the value, the effectiveness, of that. I can respond to my Aunt Dyanna by say saying to her, "You're a racist" (which, I'll point out, is different than saying, "Wow, that was really dumb, Aunt Dyanna") and she might very well respond, "No I'm not!" And then I can use my energy and intellect and time to argue that, yes, you ARE a racist. And maybe, as Kelsey claimed, there's value in that. Value for me, for others hearing me. But the value depends on my goal - if my goal is to engage my aunt, my ability to do so is now diminished because she has been put on the defensive.
But perhaps that's not my goal! Maybe that goal is too small. Maybe I care more about combating racism on a larger scale, and I feel that calling my Aunt a racist to her face, in front of a lot of other people, might make those other people think more critically and embolden them to take steps to combat racism when they encounter it. That could be. I get that argument.
Or, if I think my aunt and the rest of my family are more like perpetrators of domestic violence - that none of them can be reached through education, empathy - I can focus my efforts on protecting the people their racism affects/endangers, by participating in our political process, by standing up for others when they are threatened (by her or anyone). In this case, again, I question the value of getting into an argument, with my aunt and/or my family members, about whether or not they are racist.
Also, just FYI, the fact that my comment addressed "calling someone a racist" (i.e. addressing racism on an individual level), doesn't mean that I don't recognize that racism exists on a systemic level. I was just choosing to discuss "calling someone a racist" (Merriam Webster defines this kind of individual level racism as a "belief"). And perhaps it was stupid to interject a comment about "individual racism" given the previous posts in the thread - I'll admit, I was only skimming them. And I thought to myself before I posted my comment, "you should probably either read through this thread in more depth or stay out of it." But I didn't, in part because I *always* feel like I need more information, a better understanding, to be smarter, etc., before I should "get involved" in anything, and that attitude has lead to a lot of inactivity and lack of engagement on my part. So...I jumped in.
I'm typing all this out because it helps me think through it, not because I desire to prove a point or redeem myself.
@Loose_Threads, you have stated in this thread that my opinions are "unilequivocally fucked," that I am "crave" and "ignorant" and have nothing inside my mind. So I have to believe your goal is not to dialogue with me, to help me see why I should be ashamed of myself. And, again, I know it's not your job to do so! Sometimes you/we just need to vent your/our anger and mourn with other people, and you don't need "dummies" chiming in, trying to debate with you about something you don't feel like you have the time or energy or desire to debate. I actually don't know if that was your purpose here. Maybe you could help me understand your purpose? I guess you did say you wanted to demonstrate to others how empty my mind is...but why? Maybe I'm the racist Aunt Dyanna in this scenario whom you believe can't be reached, but you're trying to call me out (by literally calling me names) to embolden others to combat people like me?
But but but...Jesus!...I think I can be reached! I consistently reevaluate my beliefs based on input from and resources provided by the UHX community (my ultimate decision on M97 is a good example). So if you feel I can't be reached - who the hell can?
I literally only come to this board because there are a lot of smart people on it with different perspectives than myself, and I think that is super valuable. It's certainly not because I am popular or well liked or am under the illusion that I ever will be. Despite that, I think it was mentioned, people are usually pretty respectful and I think that is great, and despite my own sometimes misguided views I think I at least add a part of the people spectrum that is not represented here much even if it's thought of as a dumb and uncool part. Believe it or not LT, you have definitely made me question a lot, and a lot of things on this board have definitely helped me find better perspectives. So thanks for that Urho peeps. That all said, as a white guy I should have just kept my damn mouth shut for this one like all the other wiser white guys on this board did. My bad. I guess I just thought I should get in there because I am sorta one of the people who needs to get talked to.
Flossy, you're very reasonable. Honestly, that's why I think you are dangerous. The idea of a liberal white person looking up racism in the dictionary in order to arrange their thoughts chills my blood.
I am not the person doing Outreach. I don't need to even have a goal to say Wash your dirty mouth out with soap, other than to say something is offensive. The whole idea that you need to have some grand design of how to fix white people in order to tell them to shut up and stop it is complementary to the idea that tolerance applies to evil.
Thor, I think you would benefit from a good consensual ass-beating. Find a guy or gal to lay you over their knee and mercilessly whip you with the flat end of a hairbrush, you'll feel loads better
I'm going to recommend we collectively take a break from this thread for a day or two. There are a lot of words but very little communicating between participants.
Comments
Shut up Thor
What I did equate was "calling someone a racist" and "calling someone a bad name," and I totally understand how claiming that equivalence (especially using the simplistic language "bad name") could seem horriblly inappropriate. But to be clear, again, I was referring to the term "racist" in the context of arguing that a single, individual person is racist (or, in this case, your argument that every single, specific, individual U.S. voter is racist), and I was questioning the value, the effectiveness, of that. I can respond to my Aunt Dyanna by say saying to her, "You're a racist" (which, I'll point out, is different than saying, "Wow, that was really dumb, Aunt Dyanna") and she might very well respond, "No I'm not!" And then I can use my energy and intellect and time to argue that, yes, you ARE a racist. And maybe, as Kelsey claimed, there's value in that. Value for me, for others hearing me. But the value depends on my goal - if my goal is to engage my aunt, my ability to do so is now diminished because she has been put on the defensive.
But perhaps that's not my goal! Maybe that goal is too small. Maybe I care more about combating racism on a larger scale, and I feel that calling my Aunt a racist to her face, in front of a lot of other people, might make those other people think more critically and embolden them to take steps to combat racism when they encounter it. That could be. I get that argument.
Or, if I think my aunt and the rest of my family are more like perpetrators of domestic violence - that none of them can be reached through education, empathy - I can focus my efforts on protecting the people their racism affects/endangers, by participating in our political process, by standing up for others when they are threatened (by her or anyone). In this case, again, I question the value of getting into an argument, with my aunt and/or my family members, about whether or not they are racist.
Also, just FYI, the fact that my comment addressed "calling someone a racist" (i.e. addressing racism on an individual level), doesn't mean that I don't recognize that racism exists on a systemic level. I was just choosing to discuss "calling someone a racist" (Merriam Webster defines this kind of individual level racism as a "belief"). And perhaps it was stupid to interject a comment about "individual racism" given the previous posts in the thread - I'll admit, I was only skimming them. And I thought to myself before I posted my comment, "you should probably either read through this thread in more depth or stay out of it." But I didn't, in part because I *always* feel like I need more information, a better understanding, to be smarter, etc., before I should "get involved" in anything, and that attitude has lead to a lot of inactivity and lack of engagement on my part. So...I jumped in.
I'm typing all this out because it helps me think through it, not because I desire to prove a point or redeem myself.
@Loose_Threads, you have stated in this thread that my opinions are "unilequivocally fucked," that I am "crave" and "ignorant" and have nothing inside my mind. So I have to believe your goal is not to dialogue with me, to help me see why I should be ashamed of myself. And, again, I know it's not your job to do so! Sometimes you/we just need to vent your/our anger and mourn with other people, and you don't need "dummies" chiming in, trying to debate with you about something you don't feel like you have the time or energy or desire to debate. I actually don't know if that was your purpose here. Maybe you could help me understand your purpose? I guess you did say you wanted to demonstrate to others how empty my mind is...but why? Maybe I'm the racist Aunt Dyanna in this scenario whom you believe can't be reached, but you're trying to call me out (by literally calling me names) to embolden others to combat people like me?
But but but...Jesus!...I think I can be reached! I consistently reevaluate my beliefs based on input from and resources provided by the UHX community (my ultimate decision on M97 is a good example). So if you feel I can't be reached - who the hell can?
The idea of a liberal white person looking up racism in the dictionary in order to arrange their thoughts chills my blood.