@Loose_Thread Is there an advantage to arguing that every U.S. citizen who voted is a "racist," (which I guess you're equating with "being a part of a greater social structure that evolved on the basis of white supremacy")?
Is the advantage that we all accept it so we can talk about it?
As always, it seems (to me) like we should drop the name-calling when we're talking about politics - just not even speak in terms of who is racist and who isn't - and simply talk about policies and actions. Does *this* policy impinge on the rights of a particular demographic? Does *this* language increase or decrease tolerance and understanding of differences?
Calling anyone a racist (or other bad names) is only going to continue to alienate that person or group, IMO. And anyway, racism is defined by a person's beliefs - we can't know what a person believes. Only how they act. So it just seems pointless to me to argue that anyone is or is not a racist.
I guess all I'll say is that a person can find the most logical and "best" moral position ever and can speak to it over and over again, but if they don't listen to the people who don't have it and every time a person talks about it they get super sanctimonious and shame people then they aren't really doing much good probably. Finding what is wrong with everyone's stance will find a goal to work towards, but finding the good in everyone's stance will help bring them to that goal. I know a lot of people with bad positions yell and are obnoxious but getting as angry as them or not listening to them I don't think helps much either. Racism, sexism, prejudice in general are all wars of attrition. Wars of attrition are frustrating. The bus is still moving pretty good. I think historically we are moving faster socially than we ever have, but we were never all going to evolve to more progressive positions over night. Shitty stuff is still going to get a win occasionally, but Trump is maybe nothing more than a brake pump. If people keep talking to stuff and remain kind the bus will get there eventually.
Also, in response to where I have seen opinion changes in people in my own life, it seems like a lot of them come from in person conversations between family members or close friends. So maybe that's a solution. Make more close friends and talk to them and your family irl more often.
What's the advantage in discussing white supremacy?
Nothing, if you're white.
Racism is bad, but talking about it is impolite. So when your sweet aunt Dyanna says something you know is wrong, you smile and nod. But if I say "wow, that was really dumb, Aunt Dyanna," I'm a name-caller.
That depends. I mean you always have the right, but do you mostly avoid your sweet Aunt Dyanna and then the one time you see her you call her a dumb racist for something stupid she said? Cause yeah, that sorta sucks. Not to whip out the ol' two wrongs don't make a right cliche but...
I do feel your frustration @Loose_Thread, and you may be right about everything, but I have a seemingly more and more irrational belief that you kill people with kindness. Racists included. It is a probably mostly visceral belief that that is the way to make the world a better place. I wouldn't deny that there is a lot of evidence against that approach though, but to me losing while pursuing a loving path is really no loss at all. The hardest thing about it is to keep pursuing that path while watching evil win.
Racism in the sense I use the word is certainly not defined by an individual's beliefs. Racism is a system, an organizing principle for an entire society and how that society functions on myriad interlocking levels. Same with misogyny, etc. Society isn't misogynist because of individual dudes hating women; it's misogynist in its bones, in the way everything works, our laws, our labor formations, the assumptions we make about life, each other, etc etc.
This is why there's no such thing as "reverse racism." Racism in the true sense of the world only flows from the dominant/oppressor race to the oppressed races; it can't go the other way.
This is also what people mean when they say that both Clinton/her supporters and Trump/his supporters are racist. Because essentially we are all steeped in a profound ideology of racism regardless of our conscious beliefs/values/desires for humanity. Believing that Clinton is good for the world in contrast to Trump already reveals certain prejudices and blind spots (for example, an unawareness of how bad for people in the Global South a Clinton presidency would have been, in the sense that Clinton would have continued Obama's/Bush's/Bill Clinton's/Reagan's imperial pillaging and enslavement of brown people in poor countries under the banner of trade and labor agreements meant to "spread democracy" AKA the free market). Neoliberalism is as racist as Trump's shitty nativism, it just manifests in different ways, and is veiled where Trump's is overt.
Obviously there are different degrees and kinds of individual racism but when the entire system is riddled with race-based bias, history, assumptions, practices, social formations, policing and incarceration strategies, even decisions like where to build freeways and locate hazardous chemical facilities, etc then it can't be escaped by simply electing one president rather than another. The Obama Administration promotes racism; so will the Trump Admin; so would have the Clinton Admin.
I think this might be part of what LT is getting at--though I don't mean to put words in her mouth!
people's inability to comprehend this concept demonstrates how steeped we ALL are in this American ideology wherein individuals are the only meaningful unit. Individuals actually aren't that meaningful, though, if they can't think collectively.
As always, it seems (to me) like we should drop the name-calling when we're talking about politics - just not even speak in terms of who is racist and who isn't - and simply talk about policies and actions. Does *this* policy impinge on the rights of a particular demographic? Does *this* language increase or decrease tolerance and understanding of differences?
@Flossy, you don't know what you're talking about. Policy and action have never been and never will be separate from social analysis.
I'll tell you one thing we can both agree on: white people really hate it when you call them racist.
I mean, this thread is really disturbing. At least with the GOP, they just come out and say it.
With self-identified progressives, it's "aversive racism." That's when you don't see the problems of racism because your parents thought it'd be best to raise a child away from all that.
Resisting our conditioning is very hard; even recognizing what is a "conditioned" way of thinking is super difficult. Poking at stuff that troubles us is hard. Literally every day I run up against my own conditioning, my own received wisdom I've never actually critically examined.
In case anyone is interested, here are some books that helped me start learning about this stuff and thinking and re-thinking my own ideological conditioning (an ongoing process). People on UHX have sometimes complained about academic writing, and yes, these are "academic" texts, meaning they assume a certain body of pre-existing knowledge, but if you take frequent wikipedia breaks they are doable.
As you may have noticed, I'm frustrated and emotional. I'm angry that half of you want to argue about what racism is. I'm angry that you think that white America just needs to be treated with more respect. I'm disgusted that you'd rather go along to get along than to do the right thing. I'm dismayed at how little you know about basic history, psychology, and social studies. I'm envious that you can be so ignorant yet so confident. I'm worried for the people around you who will be hurt by your cravenness.
LT, I admire your rage. Really I do. For me at least, I am just a lazy coward now. I used to have the energy to be mad at stuff that was happening in the world, and to try to keep up with all the best thinkers. I used to be part of the C.A.N. network. I held bowling tournaments and concerts for helping Iraqi refugees to go to college for Christ's sake. I learned Roberts fucking Rules of Order for conferences discussing social inequality in Columbia. I had time. I was a better person when I had time. Now I, admittedly, suck. I think over the last 8 years or so I have just seen the absolute worst of the human race over and over again and my relentless optimism has turned into relentless pessimism, although I would argue that my seeming pessimism is just that my optimism has lowered it's starting point to the low I have been in the last few years. Anyhow, I think I am just at this point now where people suck you know? We are all filled with good, but there is also a bunch of suck in everyone. Genetically, socially, we are built to suck a bunch. I just can't get mad about it anymore. The only thing I ever feel anymore is sadness for it, and forgiveness because I suck just as much as everyone else. I wish people would give me a reason to think differently, but I don't think I will find that until I can afford to move somewhere else. That all said I hope you make a difference and change some things for the better for someone somewhere, and I am sorry for sucking.
I do appreciate your frankness, @Thor... "I don't care anymore" is better than playing dumb.
I'd say that, for you, activism was like a volunteer activity that you'd add to a college application; something you could do to make yourself look well-rounded and adventurous. I bet it felt pretty great when you announced the fulfillment of a fundraising goal, or got a thank-you card from an Iraqi family. Maybe your friends even introduced you to pretty girls and cool guys as "this is my friend Thor, he's gonna save the world!!"
Then, you walked away from it because you could, and to make yourself feel better, you thought more and more about how no one deserves you anyway. Finally, you were free of having to care about what other people thought of you! Years later, this thread appeared; reading something in it poked the part of you that had formerly been so proud to fight for justice. I reminded you of yourself back then, so full of conviction and passion, which raised disturbing memories and feelings.
So if confronting people in a way that makes them feel guilty doesn't work, why did you just write the first honest conversation in this thread?
Many people don't have the privilege of being sad, giving up, and staying alive. Those who do have the moral obligation to at least try really freaking hard to fight that instinct. If things keep going this way, there will come a point where none of us have that privilege.
Dude. Kelsey. Consider you don't know me, and you don't know what I have been through so I would kindly ask you to consider that before you label any sadness a privilege or lecture anyone on moral obligations because you are being as blindly apathetic as you are accusing me of being. Thanks.
Also, calling out racist ideas and actions is totally productive, but calling people racist, while maybe not name calling, is definitely a waste of time.
Ohhh I edited my comment right after Thor added that last post! Snap!!
Thor, it's cool. You already admitted you freed yourself from care because everyone sucks. What Kelsey said is that you were able to abandon the social cause you took up because, in the end, it was your choice to fight, not something you have to do to survive.
You can have been through a lot, including very bad things, and also have privileges not necessarily related to those experiences. I absolutely empathize with having painful and difficult experiences which impact your ability to take action in ways you might wish you could. The fact that you are able to make that choice at all, though, does illuminate privilege. What I mean is... some people see the world for what it is, like you described above, and on top of that, they know they could die because of it. That's just a fact. So when you talk about giving up, it brings to mind the many people who simply can't. That alone might not give you a reason to "get mad about it." But it might be more efficient to get mad about it now, instead of waiting until you really have to get mad about it because it more directly impacts your own life.
Also, making up mythologies about someone you have never met to tell yourself you have figured them out so you can have control...pretty ironic in this thread.
It isn't a failure that your mental and emotional well-being made it difficult to help other people. But you should be ashamed that you have now taken up the cause of telling other, less apathetic people that they've got it all wrong because you never found a way to move through your own disappointment and feelings of helplessness.
This whole "calling someone racist is a waste of time and not productive" thing...... whew. You'd only say that if you thought that addressing racism was about enlightening the abuser, not standing up for the victim. When you are wearing your White Supremacy glasses, it makes white people be at the center of absolutely everything, even mitigating the harm of racism. Can't tell racists they're racist because it'd chill their ego. Don't bother fighting racism because racists are gonna racist. Racism is part of nature and it can't be solved; we know, we already tried to and it didn't work.
Just let yourself feel the pain of being so wrong.
"Calling me privileged is just as bad as racism." Nice save, I almost didn't see that one coming!
Thor, I'm sorry, but you have been born too early to win this round of Oppressed White Man. Please try back in 20 years.
No, that's kinda wrong of me to say... I 100% do believe that white men experience losses from racism and sexism. Little boys getting told not to cry, missing out on sharing affection with your friends, feeling like a failure if you don't get that promotion you've been wanting. That's all your suffering to examine. But, when you do, you'll notice that you've been saddled with these expectations in order to demonstrate the superior fitness of your demographic.
I'm going to start writing things I don't agree with, to see if you then disagree with me just out of habit....
I'd only say that because every time I have seen someone called a racist (outside of a couple of celebrities maybe) they either dig their heals in further or ignore it. I'm not sure who that helps. I am wrong all the time. I am probably wrong about this. I mostly just learn and move on, pain seems unnecessary. I don't know why you think I think you have it all wrong. I don't. I don't think you hold the holy grail of progressive stances on racism that can't be debated though. Do you think that?
This isn't a debate, it's a magic show. This is the beginning of the trick, where I offer your mind to the audience to show them that there's nothing inside.
I think there's immense value in saying the truth loudly and clearly, regardless of who accepts it, ignores it, is angered by it, etc. I just can't imagine that it's NOT meaningful to say what's real, regardless of how productive it might be in terms of changing minds.
It helps ME to say, "That's racist." Or, "You're racist." And it helps other people who don't say it, but agree. And it helps those who might have forgotten, but are reminded. And it just helps, like, REALITY, to frequently reaffirm what's real. Like, how do we know what's real if we can't/don't even say what's real?
I liked Patton Oswalt in Ratatouille but that's about it.
Hey one thing that I think is really helpful, in addition to saying "that's racist" or "you're racist" is saying "I'm racist". If white people don't build the figure of the mythological Racist up into this horrifying Other, it makes it a lot easier to actually do the work of trying to figure out how to dismantle it.
not "i'm racist" in the stupid "everyone's a little bit racist" song from that shitty musical way. Just in the way of taking ownership of your responsibility to deprogram yourself.
I am a dumb racist. Sexist too. Working to be less of all of those day by day. There are a lot of dumb people like myself though. They probably aren't on this board. Here you are just sorta fighting with me about...I'm not really sure, but peace to you LT. Sorry people have been so mean to you that you feel the need to be fucking mean as shit also.
Well I sorta thought I was "doing that" right there in a low key way. but sure yeah I will make it explicit. I have a lot of work I need to do to purge implicit bias from my brain and to confront racist power structures and reckon with my complicity. I think naming it is hella productive. I agree with Kelsey about that.
And I also want to name & recognize the pitfall of performative white anti racism, a corny theatrical thing which is self-congratulatory and again way too individual focused, like bad monologues about individual feelings and journeys where we need engagement with power. (Not attributing this modality to anyone in this thread FWIW)
Good on ya @Thor. It's astute of you to notice that I bear the scars of unkindness; indeed, sometimes I wonder if it isn't my suffering that has made me brave, or at least given me a unique insight into the banal depravity of human nature and a special power of regulating my breath in the face of its rotten stench. But that said, my judgment of you is only a tiny fart compared to how shitty shit is going to be for everyone who isn't white, straight, and gainfully employed for the next 4 years.
I feel like I am always on the edge of P.W.A.R., since I am both performative and anti-white I mean -racist.
That all sounds like a much more enriching thread. But this thread is not quite ready for that. This thread is for people who think that Racism is a lake in Switzerland. And for me and you and Kelsey and YT and Freddy and Zin to experiment with changing hearts and minds. I mostly learn by making mistakes, so.......
I mean, besides being a racist and sexist, I'm a wimpy bald chubby bisexual geek. People have been laying huge shits on my face for years. You're right. Your little farts are pretty much less than nothing comparatively. No offense. That is not a contest you would want to "win". On the bright side, it helped me give up on my hope of winning any popularity contests years ago, and I personally think that has been good for me. Things will suck though for sure, but I mean, the 50s happened. The world didn't end. The human race still made progress then. Things will not be worse than that socially. We had a black president named Barack Obama. Even 15 years ago you would have been called insane if someone told you that was going to happen. 2 years ago I explained to my mother that I like dicks in my butt and my own dick in vaginas (not that vulgarly but I saw the initially horrified look in her eye that that was what she was thinking) and she still thinks I'm gay just like she thinks vegetarians eat fish, but she still loves me and didn't like disown me like she probably would have if we were living even like 20 years ago. That's awesome. It was sorta one of the best days of my life. I don't think that will stop. I know it's not this way for everyone, and I am lucky in that I date ladies sometimes so can hide amongst the straights occasionally, but like Dick Cheney is pro gay rights. That's something. The human race surprises everyone good and bad all the time. I do sincereIy wish you good luck and success in your quest. Just like, maybe you could take the rage down a notch. Just saying. You're smart. You can probably do it without the rage and sanctimonious vibe. Maybe I'm wrong. I have definitely considered and been frightened by the prospect that maybe all the loud bullies always win and maybe that's what you need to do to succeed. I don't know. Also being a sorta stupid hippy dummy asshole, I'm going to just take the trying to max out my everyday kindness, love, and openness approach and hopefully move the needle a little in my own way. I'm sure I'll still fuckup and be an asshole sometimes. Anyhow, happy to keep reading your perspective. Keep it coming bitch! <--I mean this with love. I hope you can imagine how that is possible. :)>-
Jesus Christ. Sorry alright. Just sorry. Sorry for anything horrible I am doing or did. For what it's worth I was trying to say it as means of respect like sassy effeminate people do from time to time. The way people say it to sometimes mean "You be who you are and I support you not apologizing for being who you are" you know? You have never run into this? I mean/meant no harm. We just apparently use the English language to communicate very differently and hear and mean very different things when we hear or say things. Sometimes two well meaning people just can't understand each other and what the other is actually meaning even when they are technically speaking the same language. Que cera cera. I personally think that's fascinating. I forget that a lot of very good people just find it frustrating. I'm sorry for that too. Have your way with whatever mean stuff you want to say about me. I probably deserve it. Live long and prosper.
This is a not-uncommon reaction to being asked to think about white privilege. People get so steamed up and defensive that they take it to this really weird, personal place--they'll tell you the worst thing that's ever happened to them as though to excuse themselves from responsibility. That feeling of having been insulted--that immediate "you just called me A RACIST!" reaction--as if that ever got anyone killed, raped, or propped up like a disease on the nightly news--is considered so forbidden that it prevents us from even speaking up against actual violence.
I've actually been connecting two of my favorite weird hobbies--learning about familial abuse, and learning about the attitudes of white supremacy. It turns out, the two have a lot in common. White people are saying it's a waste of time to combat racism, just like a whole family can collaborate on silencing an abuse victim. "He's usually really nice. He only hit her that one time." Protecting the ego of the abuser instead of standing up for the victim. Most abusers see themselves as victims. If you say, "you're hurting me," they go "how DARE you say that to me! You think I'm a monster, don't you see that I am a good man?!!" What else... "boys will be boys" / "everyone sucks and is racist so what are you going to do about it anyway." Oh, and thinking that the consequences of holding someone accountable will be a disaster. Forgiveness is the way to heal.
I don't know that anything can be done, using education, to persuade an abuser into seeing this. That's why anger management type stuff is not really that effective for domestic abusers, and why people with narcissistic disorders don't benefit from psychotherapy. They just don't have the capacity to accept accountability, except maybe by a miracle. Instead, you do damage control by giving information to the people around them. People like us, who at least give lip service to being part of the solution.
I'm not really that upset about a bloviating acne virus calling me a bitch, but..... no one says a damn thing to him or me? Really? Not the people who "liked" by comment above, not even the people who had so much to say to me about not being a name-caller?
This is the face of the center-left, and it sucks. No wonder you want to find common ground with the proudly bigoted. You think that politeness is the same as kindness and that making a game out of rhetoric and research is the same as having a conscience. You think you're analytical, but you merely exploit your literacy in order to distort the truth.
@FaceTweetPlus: you said that white people have it worse than minorities and that addressing racism is a distraction from progressivism. You god damn, smug racist twerp. You throw "poor working class whites from the rust belt" in front of yourself like it can hide your own casual indifference--that you aren't simply projecting your own lazy, self-centered bias onto them. On behalf of UAW Local 14, fuck you very much.
@FlossyLogs: you came out here with all these carefully-worded questions that are designed to make it look like you are curious and engaged with the issues, when what you really want to say is that non-white people don't have it all that bad. You think you're a nice person just as long as no one knows what you really think. I see what you're up to, you racist douche.
What a stand-up bunch of do-gooders. You people will go on for decades about whether a taco is a sandwich, but when it comes to anything real, a cricket is louder than you.
You don't need more education; you need a heart transplant!
Guuurrrrl you are hilarious, but I think you just turned the corner from a passionate and frustrated activist/intellectual with some solid points into a plain old run of the mill shitty internet troll. You wanna email with me? I'll shut up and try to just ask questions. You can call me all sorts of names and you can teach me something. Probably better than putting that hateful speak on a board with people who I assume are some friends. Just saying.
Wow, you mean that if I email you with 1,000,000,000 examples of human tragedy, I might be able to earn back your good graces? Huzzah! Facetweet and Flossy, don't worry, this guy is going to have me all sorted out in no time. Then, I can apologize to you for judging you based on the words that you have said.
Just remember: racism only affects you if you let shitty internet trolls make you feel bad about it.
You were never out of my good graces. Not trying to "straighten you out". Just trying to listen. I'm a white dude in Portland. I don't have many opportunities to hear other perspectives that might enlighten me. Just trying to help a fellow human being let go of some rage without doing damage to their life and get some understanding like I wish some people had done for me sometimes. That's all.
I've had a theory that for tough subjects, the voice in everyone's head that they are hearing as they read everyone else is the biggest jerk ever. It's why the horrible comments sections and twitter wars happen. People don't mean things as harshly as often I don't think, but if you don't know someone or even see someone fairly regularly IRL that jerk in people's heads takes over and reads things in the worst inflections possible. Internet conversations are like 50% your own assumptions and projections onto people's words. Doesn't help when someone has sorta bad grammar skills like myself. Anyhow, internet comments and messages are sorta crappy tools for real understanding, but they can work in a pinch.
@Loose_Thread I'm sorry the words I used, the ones you're judging me on, gave you the impression that what I really want to say is that "non-white people don't have it all that bad." I don't understand how you got from the words I used to that judgement, and I think you misinterpreted me, but that's okay. I'm not asking you to explain your logic to me.
*I* know what I have experienced and what I believe, and I also know - like YT pointed out so graciously - that my beliefs can be totally, crazily, mind-boggling-ly misguided. Hence, they are subject to change. One of the ways I change my beliefs is by expressing them to people whose own beliefs and opinions and intellects and accumulated knowledge and experiences and values I admire, and inviting dialogue. If they're the right people, I assume that they will, at the very least, receive my questioning with an open mind, giving me the benefit of the doubt in terms of my intentions. Hence, I feel pretty safe here, in this thread, sharing that I'm not convinced I should vote yes on M97, even though I'm pretty sure most of the folks on here are for it. They might be frustrated with me, because it's important to them and maybe they think I'm not seeing something obvious, but then they get to choose whether or not to spend their valuable time helping me understand something (which is so cool!) or not (which is totally fine and understandable!) or calling me a racist douche (not actually very cool, but kind of funny given my comment above that you so abhorred - I'll give you that).
Re: the crickets - you haven't exactly been creating an atmosphere in this thread that invites input and discussion. You seem to really HATE this thread, actually. So...
@YoursTruly - Thanks for the resources. I started the Wendy Brown book and boy, it's hard for me to get through (the first essay was more digestible than the intro, though - I have zero understanding of what "critical theory" even refers to, so it's a bit of a slog to get started...).
I haven't been keeping up with things here, but had I been I definitely would have spoken up for you, LT.
I share your rage, and I disagree that rage=mean.
That being said, your last comment (wait, the one from 4:15) was pretty mean. That's your choice, I just don't know that I feel the same way or feel ready to draw those lines in the sand here.
I got really pissed that Flossy said saying "racist" is name-calling. And then Thor said "kill 'em with kindness." And then kDawg said "don't demonize racists."
Each and every one of those opinions is unequivocally fucked. You all should be completely ashamed of yourselves that you felt the need to defend racism in your own special way.
I definitely did not say "don't demonize racists", but I am ashamed that I didn't call out the "bitch" language, because I didn't see it. Tbh, i was skimming Thor's posts because I was bored with his perspective.
It was meant kindly but apparently went super wrong in translation. I tried to explain that. Twice. Three times now. Apologized too. Again, I'm sorry. A couple of times people have unapologetically meant truly cruel and mean spirited things that they said to people in this thread, and they were not me*. Unapologetic bullying is apparently better than unintentional to you guys. Great. Good luck being bullies. That gets you a long way in this country apparently.
*Matter of fact. In no way do I see myself as a victim
Comments
Is there an advantage to arguing that every U.S. citizen who voted is a "racist," (which I guess you're equating with "being a part of a greater social structure that evolved on the basis of white supremacy")?
Is the advantage that we all accept it so we can talk about it?
As always, it seems (to me) like we should drop the name-calling when we're talking about politics - just not even speak in terms of who is racist and who isn't - and simply talk about policies and actions. Does *this* policy impinge on the rights of a particular demographic? Does *this* language increase or decrease tolerance and understanding of differences?
Calling anyone a racist (or other bad names) is only going to continue to alienate that person or group, IMO. And anyway, racism is defined by a person's beliefs - we can't know what a person believes. Only how they act. So it just seems pointless to me to argue that anyone is or is not a racist.
How about this article:
http://www.villagevoice.com/music/ask-andrew-wk-my-dad-is-a-right-wing-asshole-6644226
Someone from this board shared it a while ago and I liked it a lot, and I have re-read it twice since the election.
Nothing, if you're white.
Racism is bad, but talking about it is impolite. So when your sweet aunt Dyanna says something you know is wrong, you smile and nod. But if I say "wow, that was really dumb, Aunt Dyanna," I'm a name-caller.
Do I have that right?
I do feel your frustration @Loose_Thread, and you may be right about everything, but I have a seemingly more and more irrational belief that you kill people with kindness. Racists included. It is a probably mostly visceral belief that that is the way to make the world a better place. I wouldn't deny that there is a lot of evidence against that approach though, but to me losing while pursuing a loving path is really no loss at all. The hardest thing about it is to keep pursuing that path while watching evil win.
This is why there's no such thing as "reverse racism." Racism in the true sense of the world only flows from the dominant/oppressor race to the oppressed races; it can't go the other way.
This is also what people mean when they say that both Clinton/her supporters and Trump/his supporters are racist. Because essentially we are all steeped in a profound ideology of racism regardless of our conscious beliefs/values/desires for humanity. Believing that Clinton is good for the world in contrast to Trump already reveals certain prejudices and blind spots (for example, an unawareness of how bad for people in the Global South a Clinton presidency would have been, in the sense that Clinton would have continued Obama's/Bush's/Bill Clinton's/Reagan's imperial pillaging and enslavement of brown people in poor countries under the banner of trade and labor agreements meant to "spread democracy" AKA the free market). Neoliberalism is as racist as Trump's shitty nativism, it just manifests in different ways, and is veiled where Trump's is overt.
Obviously there are different degrees and kinds of individual racism but when the entire system is riddled with race-based bias, history, assumptions, practices, social formations, policing and incarceration strategies, even decisions like where to build freeways and locate hazardous chemical facilities, etc then it can't be escaped by simply electing one president rather than another. The Obama Administration promotes racism; so will the Trump Admin; so would have the Clinton Admin.
I think this might be part of what LT is getting at--though I don't mean to put words in her mouth!
people's inability to comprehend this concept demonstrates how steeped we ALL are in this American ideology wherein individuals are the only meaningful unit. Individuals actually aren't that meaningful, though, if they can't think collectively.
I'll tell you one thing we can both agree on: white people really hate it when you call them racist.
With self-identified progressives, it's "aversive racism." That's when you don't see the problems of racism because your parents thought it'd be best to raise a child away from all that.
In case anyone is interested, here are some books that helped me start learning about this stuff and thinking and re-thinking my own ideological conditioning (an ongoing process). People on UHX have sometimes complained about academic writing, and yes, these are "academic" texts, meaning they assume a certain body of pre-existing knowledge, but if you take frequent wikipedia breaks they are doable.
Jodi Melamed, Represent and Destroy: Rationalizing Violence in the New Racial Capitalism (https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/represent-and-destroy)
Wendy Brown, Edgework: Critical Essays on Knowledge and Politics
(look there's a pdf!!! I love this book https://minahogafunderingar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/wendy-brown-neoliberalism-and-the-end-of-liberal-democracy-and-other-texts.pdf)
David Harvey, A Brief History of Neoliberalism
http://www.oupcanada.com/catalog/9780199283279.html
This awesome edited volume (Angela Davis's essay is especially killer), Mapping Multiculturalism
https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/mapping-multiculturalism
As you may have noticed, I'm frustrated and emotional. I'm angry that half of you want to argue about what racism is. I'm angry that you think that white America just needs to be treated with more respect. I'm disgusted that you'd rather go along to get along than to do the right thing. I'm dismayed at how little you know about basic history, psychology, and social studies. I'm envious that you can be so ignorant yet so confident. I'm worried for the people around you who will be hurt by your cravenness.
I'd say that, for you, activism was like a volunteer activity that you'd add to a college application; something you could do to make yourself look well-rounded and adventurous. I bet it felt pretty great when you announced the fulfillment of a fundraising goal, or got a thank-you card from an Iraqi family. Maybe your friends even introduced you to pretty girls and cool guys as "this is my friend Thor, he's gonna save the world!!"
Then, you walked away from it because you could, and to make yourself feel better, you thought more and more about how no one deserves you anyway. Finally, you were free of having to care about what other people thought of you! Years later, this thread appeared; reading something in it poked the part of you that had formerly been so proud to fight for justice. I reminded you of yourself back then, so full of conviction and passion, which raised disturbing memories and feelings.
So if confronting people in a way that makes them feel guilty doesn't work, why did you just write the first honest conversation in this thread?
Thor, it's cool. You already admitted you freed yourself from care because everyone sucks. What Kelsey said is that you were able to abandon the social cause you took up because, in the end, it was your choice to fight, not something you have to do to survive.
This whole "calling someone racist is a waste of time and not productive" thing...... whew. You'd only say that if you thought that addressing racism was about enlightening the abuser, not standing up for the victim. When you are wearing your White Supremacy glasses, it makes white people be at the center of absolutely everything, even mitigating the harm of racism. Can't tell racists they're racist because it'd chill their ego. Don't bother fighting racism because racists are gonna racist. Racism is part of nature and it can't be solved; we know, we already tried to and it didn't work.
Just let yourself feel the pain of being so wrong.
Thor, I'm sorry, but you have been born too early to win this round of Oppressed White Man. Please try back in 20 years.
No, that's kinda wrong of me to say... I 100% do believe that white men experience losses from racism and sexism. Little boys getting told not to cry, missing out on sharing affection with your friends, feeling like a failure if you don't get that promotion you've been wanting. That's all your suffering to examine. But, when you do, you'll notice that you've been saddled with these expectations in order to demonstrate the superior fitness of your demographic.
I'm going to start writing things I don't agree with, to see if you then disagree with me just out of habit....
It helps ME to say, "That's racist." Or, "You're racist." And it helps other people who don't say it, but agree. And it helps those who might have forgotten, but are reminded. And it just helps, like, REALITY, to frequently reaffirm what's real. Like, how do we know what's real if we can't/don't even say what's real?
Hey one thing that I think is really helpful, in addition to saying "that's racist" or "you're racist" is saying "I'm racist". If white people don't build the figure of the mythological Racist up into this horrifying Other, it makes it a lot easier to actually do the work of trying to figure out how to dismantle it.
not "i'm racist" in the stupid "everyone's a little bit racist" song from that shitty musical way. Just in the way of taking ownership of your responsibility to deprogram yourself.
That all sounds like a much more enriching thread. But this thread is not quite ready for that. This thread is for people who think that Racism is a lake in Switzerland. And for me and you and Kelsey and YT and Freddy and Zin to experiment with changing hearts and minds. I mostly learn by making mistakes, so.......
I've actually been connecting two of my favorite weird hobbies--learning about familial abuse, and learning about the attitudes of white supremacy. It turns out, the two have a lot in common. White people are saying it's a waste of time to combat racism, just like a whole family can collaborate on silencing an abuse victim. "He's usually really nice. He only hit her that one time." Protecting the ego of the abuser instead of standing up for the victim. Most abusers see themselves as victims. If you say, "you're hurting me," they go "how DARE you say that to me! You think I'm a monster, don't you see that I am a good man?!!" What else... "boys will be boys" / "everyone sucks and is racist so what are you going to do about it anyway." Oh, and thinking that the consequences of holding someone accountable will be a disaster. Forgiveness is the way to heal.
I don't know that anything can be done, using education, to persuade an abuser into seeing this. That's why anger management type stuff is not really that effective for domestic abusers, and why people with narcissistic disorders don't benefit from psychotherapy. They just don't have the capacity to accept accountability, except maybe by a miracle. Instead, you do damage control by giving information to the people around them. People like us, who at least give lip service to being part of the solution.
This is the face of the center-left, and it sucks. No wonder you want to find common ground with the proudly bigoted. You think that politeness is the same as kindness and that making a game out of rhetoric and research is the same as having a conscience. You think you're analytical, but you merely exploit your literacy in order to distort the truth.
@FaceTweetPlus: you said that white people have it worse than minorities and that addressing racism is a distraction from progressivism. You god damn, smug racist twerp. You throw "poor working class whites from the rust belt" in front of yourself like it can hide your own casual indifference--that you aren't simply projecting your own lazy, self-centered bias onto them. On behalf of UAW Local 14, fuck you very much.
@FlossyLogs: you came out here with all these carefully-worded questions that are designed to make it look like you are curious and engaged with the issues, when what you really want to say is that non-white people don't have it all that bad. You think you're a nice person just as long as no one knows what you really think. I see what you're up to, you racist douche.
What a stand-up bunch of do-gooders. You people will go on for decades about whether a taco is a sandwich, but when it comes to anything real, a cricket is louder than you.
You don't need more education; you need a heart transplant!
Just remember: racism only affects you if you let shitty internet trolls make you feel bad about it.
I'm sorry the words I used, the ones you're judging me on, gave you the impression that what I really want to say is that "non-white people don't have it all that bad." I don't understand how you got from the words I used to that judgement, and I think you misinterpreted me, but that's okay. I'm not asking you to explain your logic to me.
*I* know what I have experienced and what I believe, and I also know - like YT pointed out so graciously - that my beliefs can be totally, crazily, mind-boggling-ly misguided. Hence, they are subject to change. One of the ways I change my beliefs is by expressing them to people whose own beliefs and opinions and intellects and accumulated knowledge and experiences and values I admire, and inviting dialogue. If they're the right people, I assume that they will, at the very least, receive my questioning with an open mind, giving me the benefit of the doubt in terms of my intentions. Hence, I feel pretty safe here, in this thread, sharing that I'm not convinced I should vote yes on M97, even though I'm pretty sure most of the folks on here are for it. They might be frustrated with me, because it's important to them and maybe they think I'm not seeing something obvious, but then they get to choose whether or not to spend their valuable time helping me understand something (which is so cool!) or not (which is totally fine and understandable!) or calling me a racist douche (not actually very cool, but kind of funny given my comment above that you so abhorred - I'll give you that).
Re: the crickets - you haven't exactly been creating an atmosphere in this thread that invites input and discussion. You seem to really HATE this thread, actually. So...
@YoursTruly - Thanks for the resources. I started the Wendy Brown book and boy, it's hard for me to get through (the first essay was more digestible than the intro, though - I have zero understanding of what "critical theory" even refers to, so it's a bit of a slog to get started...).
Good luck out there, everyone.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/11/21/how-racially-resentful-working-class-whites-fled-the-democratic-party-before-donald-trump/?utm_term=.678695f33f0c
I share your rage, and I disagree that rage=mean.
That being said, your last comment (wait, the one from 4:15) was pretty mean. That's your choice, I just don't know that I feel the same way or feel ready to draw those lines in the sand here.
Each and every one of those opinions is unequivocally fucked. You all should be completely ashamed of yourselves that you felt the need to defend racism in your own special way.
But I'm the Bitch : - )
It was meant kindly but apparently went super wrong in translation. I tried to explain that. Twice. Three times now. Apologized too. Again, I'm sorry. A couple of times people have unapologetically meant truly cruel and mean spirited things that they said to people in this thread, and they were not me*. Unapologetic bullying is apparently better than unintentional to you guys. Great. Good luck being bullies. That gets you a long way in this country apparently.
*Matter of fact. In no way do I see myself as a victim