Trump married white nationalist racism to the desire for economic renewal. It's what fascists do. It works.
Poor & working class people (of all races) ARE disenfranchised, as a class, and are absolutely right to blame establishment politics (repub and dem) for that disenfranchisement. They are also correct--just like the "leave" voters in Brexit are correct--that free trade and globalization do not serve their interests but only the interests of capitalists and corporations.
Authoritarian regimes are unfortunately adept at seizing on very legitimate economic concerns and ascribing those concerns to immigrants, Jews, Turks, Mexicans, whoever is the Other-du-jour of a given time/place. It's crazy to see it working yet again now, even after the civil rights movement, our collective horror about the holocaust, etc. But it's happening, here, for real. Just like in France, in the UK.
So class and economic disenfranchisement is certainly a big part of this (as we saw with the crazy cross-party love for bernie as well) but also white supremacy. White people OF ALL CLASSES AND GENDERS voted for Trump in droves. Rich whites! Educated whites! They voted against every other kind of self-interest in favor of their self-interest as whites. It's shattering to contemplate
i don't totally understand what is happening, and I know smarter people than I are arguing right now about whether racism or economics played a bigger role...I think it's both; I definitely think a nation that adequately supports its working class (a class which we should remember comprises non-white as well as white people) instead of working them to death like mules has fewer problems with white racism. And it's clear that working class people voted for OBAMA twice and then this time voted for Trump, clearly (I think) signaling that for lots of voters it really was about voting for the candidate who was not a corporate establishment pol like Clinton (and less about racism).
But it's also clear that millions of white people did vote for him because they are white supremacists. Millions of whites who ARENT disenfranchised came out strong for Trump, and to me that can only be white supremacy rearing up against the encroachments of minorities on mainstream american culture.
Oh yeah and everyone fucking despises women, surely that didn't help
But yeah. To say white supremacy had nothing to do with this election seems extremely blinkered and dangerous. Only white people are capable of believing that, I think, which is exactly LT's point--we (white ppl) get to be blissfully unaware of the very real and widespread and FOCUSED racism shaping our country. Time for some hard self scrutiny for us.
I would also just like to point out the super crazy FBI/Comey involvement at the last minute knocking Hillary down in the polls 4-7 points a week before the election. What the hell was that!? Nobody seems to want to confront it because it seems hard for anyone to take any "blame it on the FBI" conversation seriously, but it's not like it was a conspiracy. It's hard to call anything that blatant and out in the open a conspiracy.
I don't disagree with you, kdawg. I think what I'm getting at is that good old American white supremacy should never, ever be underestimated or downplayed. Let's not try to count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; let's look at the elephant in the room.
In all of the pieces you listed, every single one is connected to racism. I don't mean racism as a bad attitude, I mean the actual, historical events of intentional genocide. There is a whole lot to be said about the layers of misogyny, sexism, and racism that caused white women to vote for Dickturd.* The whole image of feminine virtue that is behind this type of sexism, it is built upon framing white women as different and better than black women, period, because of the history of slavery, Jim Crow in this country. So yes, white supremacy drives just about any American ill, and I am waiting for the rest of you to internalize that and see what we can do to deconstruct it.
*Sorry, I've never said anything that gross in my life, but it has the right consonants and seems apt
But it's also clear that millions of white people did vote for him because they are white supremacists.
This sort of thinking is going to keep liberals marching toward the cliff.
Look, millions of white supremacists vote for the Republicans every cycle. It's called the Southern Strategy and it's been happening since the Civil Rights Act. Again, I'm not saying that white supremacy isn't a big problem, it's just a known quantity in national elections.
Millions of whites who ARENT disenfranchised came out strong for Trump, and to me that can only be white supremacy rearing up against the encroachments of minorities on mainstream american culture.
My white, comfortably retired parents on government pensions and healthcare voted against Hillary because they are Baptist culture warrior, low-information voters who get their news from MSM TV, christian radio and Facebook. Low/middle class republicans have been conditioned to vote against their best interests for almost 40 years -- they don't care (or realize) how conservative policies will hurt them.
Big picture. Let's back up a little, it's late 2014. Ebola and Malaysian Airlines are all over the news. Ever since the tea-party movement we've had an ultra-polarized electorate, the dems haven't tacked on a "3rd term" since FDR and it's looking to be an anti-establishment cycle like nothing we've ever seen. Dems been burned recently with the electoral college so they know they need to win by a decent margin. All common sense would say use the primaries as a battle of ideas and find out who can craft the message that best appeals to rural/suburban swing voters in FL/OH/NC/CO/NH.
It was easy to see this coming, I was hopeful at the beginning of the primary season because we were able to keep HRC from the nomination once and it looked like we could do it again. But it didn't happen, and the GOP primaries did what the primaries are supposed to do and whittled down the field to the strongest candidate-- in this case the change-agent-above-all-else. The DNC on the other hand offered an arch-establishment politician with no clear message or agenda for the non-partisan voter, who's decades of "scandals" provided the opposition with the perfect GOTV messaging. Game, set and Trump.
The DNC is obviously complete bullshit and every one of those assholes should be fired immediately, in fact I am totally scandalized that Donna Brazile and the rest of them even still have any kind of public platform or a shred of legitimacy left. Yes, Bernie would obviously have won had he been the nominee--I absolutely don't discount the widespread and fervent desire for change-above-all-else that characterized this election; I felt it myself 100% (and in fact, that widespread desire is part of why this period in American history does not feel normal or usual to me). And sure, the southern strategy etc. But honestly, trying to say this is all normal, that the level of racism at play in this election is just business-as-usual, is insane to me. The shit I am reading about that is happening all over the country right now--this gleeful, hateful, violent reaction exploding against all POC, the KKK marching joyfully in broad daylight, high school students chanting the n-word and passing out deportation letters to Hispanic classmates, the entire incoming black population of U Penn's freshman class getting a group text informing them that they will be lynched, women in hijab getting attacked on the subway, and the actual official American neo-Nazi party openly supporting a candidate that doesn't even condemn them rhetorically?? A candidate who says he's going to round up all people of a certain heritage and put them in detainment camps?? And millions of people love this idea? This is normal, in American politics? Am I crazy--do you actually think this is normal?
Obviously there's always been racism, obviously racism is always at play in elections/everything, but the extremity and jubilant openness of it, as well as the violence of it among ordinary citizens (i.e. not just cops) right now to me seems unprecedented, more like Reconstruction or the 1960s than like anything I have personally been alive to see. I just don't understand how anyone can shrug it off as normal or the usual stuff. I feel like this is how fascism wins, when we all refuse to call it by its name. What we are seeing is literally and actually: an authoritarian, explicitly white nationalist regime taking power, that has the support of the FBI, large sections of the military, the police, the prison system, the Supreme Court, and all three branches of government. That does not seem precedented to me, in modern American history.
Also what is the "cliff" you are describing?? Is the "cliff" us no longer accepting bullshit candidates like HRC and going full socialist? If so then let me be first to jump the fuck off that cliff
I would LOVE to be wrong on this. I would love it so much. But right now I am not seeing that this is a normal political moment for the U.S.
or, what I mean is, that what I am seeing right now is the eruption of stuff that has definitely been seething in American culture forever. But it IS an eruption--this isn't just the normal ol' continued seething of white supremacy underneath stuff. It's out in the open and brutally visible now. It's been encouraged to come out in the open, by Trump. And a lot of Trump's stated policy proposals are pretty explicitly white supremacist to a degree I don't believe has been normal in mainstream American politics in the past few generations. Rounding up Muslims and putting them in camps would once have been considered a fringe position, a Buchanan-like bizarro platform position. Now it's considered normal and mainstream.
Maybe I am mis-reading the situation but it's hard for me to see how. I'm also influenced by the fact that literally ALL the POC intellectuals and writers I follow and read the work of are saying this election was about white supremacy; I feel like taking that opinion into account is important.
So much about this election is unprecedented (he might be the first sitting president to face trial for raping a child, e.g., pretty unusual) but the normalizing of white supremacy as a legitimate political orientation seems part of that, to me.
Yeah, the two things that scare me more than anything about the result are, like you said, all these bigots, racists, misogynists, etc being give the thumbs up for their attitudes and being emboldened to act out their horrifying impulses. Also, for at least the next 20 years or so there will be Trump copycat politicians who will drum these bigots up to this extreme degree every election cycle because they think it works politically, and apparently they are right. Don't get me wrong though. I'm pretty scared of Trump having power too.
Facetweet I guess I'm wondering... why bother with making this argument? Why do you think it's important to downplay the influence? Why should I think of white supremacy a red herring?
In regards to your comment on the Southern Strategy, my point is that that the "known quantity" metric was waaay off. A lot of dems think the worse is behind us; segregationists are old and dying. The Southern Strategy and the Civil Rights Act are happening now. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?
The more I think about how to engage with this direction of liberal strategy, the more I think it has to do with a lack of education, not opinion. I know how condescending that is but I don't know how else to put it.
But it's also clear that millions of white people did vote for him because they are white supremacists.
This sort of thinking is going to keep liberals marching toward the cliff.
Here is what I mean, specifically. Are you arguing that this is not a fact?
Maybe I am mis-reading the situation but it's hard for me to see how.
No, ma'am... you're a doctor!!! Don't downplay your authority and knowledge. YT, you're not wrong and you're not crazy--people like us need to get a way bigger attitude about challenging other people's dumb ideas!!
the next 20 years or so there will be Trump copycat politicians who will drum these bigots up to this extreme degree every election cycle
Yes. But the sorrowful thing is, "these bigots" is a number that increases exponentially. Here's the plan: in 20 years, they won't even need to be extreme because the only people who will be able to vote will be "these bigots."
That is what the power of white supremacy represents, and that is why I am so insistent that my fellow whities start taking it seriously... and personally. I mean, this stuff is going to change all of our lives, and the people crying "white supremacy" are the people who know the most about the situation, and we should be listening to them.
White people are downplaying the danger because we don't know how good we've had it.
When I say it's important to look at the full range of factors, I don't think it diminishes the importance of any of them, and white supremacy in particular undergirds so many of the various responses from the voter side as well as the tactics on the Trump campaign side and the long-term republican electoral strategy.
To be clear, I'm arguing that the DNC and it's flawed candidate are the biggest, not only, reason for the loss. After that the media, misogny and Comey in roughly that order played big roles. But if we are going to stick with the two-party winner take all system then our centrist-left party needs to play the game much smarter.
I think the cliff is turning into a moderate conservative party to battle the GOPs lurch to the right. Which I guess means we're hurtling down already since Clinton I was the best Republican president we've ever had.
A lot of dems think the worse is behind us; segregationists are old and dying. The Southern Strategy and the Civil Rights Act are happening now. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?
It is certainly happening now. It's a vote the GOP counts on like the DNC counts on the black vote. But the country didn't become more racist since 2008 creating a couple million extra Republican votes.
The extra votes were grumpy rural downwardly mobile rustbelt conservatives who haven't voted in 10+ years and saw this as their way to stick a spoke in the wheel of guvmint. Add that to the lost evangelical culture warriors still more scared of abortion and the war on Christmas than a reality TV star in the whitehouse, and the 30% of the US that are GOP True Believers, and you've got yourself a winning coalition.
The extra votes were grumpy rural downwardly mobile rustbelt conservatives
^^^ see that's some of that white supremacy. The GOP has been fomenting them with it since 2008. Because Black President. Honestly this isn't that hard
I think I read that his rape accuser dropped the charges, which is also chilling.
Growing up in the South, I saw a lot of open racism, and I felt like we had made a lot of progress since then, but it's sad to see that people were just waiting to feel like they were "on top" so that they could strike it up again.
And I'm going to subscribe to leftist publications like Jacobin, to glean talking points and to learn about calls to specific action. And join these guys: http://www.dsausa.org
Yes, LT, some white people are racist. Also a lot of white people live in the rust belt. But when a lot of these folks voted for Reagan (or Obama) we didn't call this racism.
And links to click-bait news articles aside, the number of hate groups as tracked by SPLC is lower now than 2008. Granted there has been a big rise of "patriot" groups since that time, but left-wing hate groups have also jumped.
I'm not saying America isn't racist. I'm just saying that is not (even close) to the reason we elected Trump. And I agree that it's not that hard. Michael Moore saw this coming, fuck even Cheryl Mills saw it. All of us who became Dems to vote against HRC in the primaries, knowing she would drive dittohead turnout and suppress liberal-leaning independents, knew it. There was no upside to her campaign. The only person she might have beat in that whole clown car was Bush. Maybe Cruz too just because he's so creepy.
Try to keep in mind I'm taking purely about the politics of the situation, not the morals when I say HRC was out-flanked electorally by Trump's populism not his hate speech.
The reason I harp on this isn't to win internet argument points, but to try to convince other progressives that live under a political system that includes an electoral college, low voter participation and a fact-free media landscape that we need to be laser focused on building a movement for all 50 states that results in a majority coalition. If we get 51% of the popular vote, the electoral college takes care of itself.
Signed, A newly party-unaffiliated progressive donor.
PS: Speaking of a 50-state strategy at the DNC, what the fuck ever happened to Howard Dean?
I see, so you just aren't comfortable with acknowledging that all white people, north, south, east, and west, are deeply ingrained within the system of white supremacy, no matter if we personally intended it that way. It is very uncomfortable to realize that, I empathize. So what mental gymnastics are you using to explain his appointment of Stephen K. Bannon to be the chief strategist of his cabinet?
There are racists in America. I mean, the KKK had a victory march. Sexism played a part, to think otherwise is to be blind. The above said, most Trump supporters voted for him despite what he said, not because of it. Hillary was obviously not the strongest candidate in a head to head contest, the polls showed that last year. Even though the cross hairs were never on Bernie, he would have had a stronger change message and fewer scandals. The FBI (Comey) played a part, the dive was huge. The fact that the Dems have failed to win three terms 4 out of their past 5 attempts is a huge indicator. The fact that I (a somewhat to pretty informed) Hillary supporter had no idea what her plan was for ex steel workers in Penn, or etc... is a big deal. What, they are supposed to be retrained in tech? C'mon. Everyone knows that is bull. Will Trump do better? No, but he was angry the way they were. No one can win running a policy of "more of the same." Even when "the same" has a higher popularity rating than Reagan.
Who bears the ultimate responsibility? The DNC. Those people get paid to know all of the above, and they ignored it. They thought they had a wall and sat back behind it. Post election, I feel like one of the fancy people living on the top of Metropolis. Trumps supporters see themselves as the guys on the bottom working the machines, while we coastal elites are going to Heart and getting precious as hell about a cupping (just an example, if that is your thing that is cool).
Last month I started learning how to cook. Me and the GF used trial coupons of the mail order recipe ingredient packages. I posted photos on Facebook with the hashtag "CookingForBey." That was both true and kind of a snarky joke based on the awful tumblr. But in hindsight, that is so elitist. I can afford these bougie meal services and plate my food, and then reference a tumblr of nasty looking food. That is total bubble elitism. I blame myself.
I see, so you just aren't comfortable with acknowledging that all white people, north, south, east, and west, are deeply ingrained within the system of white supremacy, no matter if we personally intended it that way.
I don't follow. I'm not sure how much plainer I can put it. My hypothesis: America is racist and sexist, but these are not the reasons Trump is in the white house. The reason for that is due to our center-left political party choosing an obviously fatally flawed candidate and then living inside a 2012 political bubble instead of fighting for 2016 votes. (Did HRC even visit WI?)
Another angle; white privilege means that white people got those no-college required blue collar jobs more than minorities, so when the economy changed white people were adversely affected more than minorities. This is why pundits can talk of rust belt white middle class voters' interests as a block. They are (largely) the pissed off ones because they have to work at McDonalds instead of GM. Or the union job dad had that provided a middle class lifestyle for the whole family now barely covers rent when Jr. joins the factory.
So what mental gymnastics are you using to explain his appointment of Stephen K. Bannon to be the chief strategist of his cabinet?
Even if Trump comes out as secret head of the KKK tonight it doesn't have a bearing on my argument here. Every bit of post election analysis I've read has shown HRC couldn't turn out her base, win white women or get near Obama's margins with voters under 30. Against Trump. Until 2020, anything that distracts liberals from figuring out how and why that happened is a liability.
Unwillingness to repudiate racism, and willingness to vote for an unapologetic racist, is racism, right? Voting for a person whose first words of his presidential campaign are to describe Mexicans as criminals, rapists, and drug mules is a racist act, isn't it?
If I'm understanding your argument, it's that racism didn't drive the Trump vote. Okay. I'm not sure I agree, but okay.
But 60 million people voting for this guy is a good sign of a deep and loathsome racism. Shouldn't just about anybody have been able to beat him? Especially the most qualified candidate to ever run for the office…
And to the "Bernie would have won" folks: Check out Kurt Eichenwald's report of the Republican oppo file on Bernie here (starting about halfway in). Yikes.
what do you guys think about Keith Ellison? I signed the petition because Bernie told me to and because I want the DNC completely dismantled and remade IMMEDIATELY, but now I'm wondering what you think? Ellison seems cool to me--old-school focus on working class and unions, all that good 1940s New Deal stuff I hope comes back, and of course I like the symbolic value of his religious heritage--but I've also seen concern on Twitter about how we should stop letting seated members of the government serve as party chairs.
Literally anyone (me, an unborn fetus, a dead cat) will be better than Wasserman-Schultz and her various dipshit cronies, so on that level alone I hope this happens. But interested in actual discussion of Ellison himself, what do you people say?
just set up my monthly ACLU donation and sent my colleague a requested reading list of leftist/marxist stuff, so feeling a bit better today. One thing I'm considering, in the wake of some distraught conversations with colleagues, is trying to compile some resources for teachers/professors for ways to re-approach classroom teaching in the face of fascism. This is very specific/specialized but if anyone has seen anything cool along these lines please pass it on.
I've seen and heard a lot of conversation around the issue of teaching in the face of fascism, but haven't found any concrete resources yet. I'll send you anything I come across.
but it COULD be awesome, right?? All that infrastructure is there; what if we could use it for actual good
also, they seem pretty powerful, given the way they were able to railroad HRC through the primary process. The superdelegate concept is really fucking crazy to me...
I haven't followed the DNC conspiracy theories closely… what are they meant to have done?
There were more debates, with more viewers, than in 2008 or 2004. The candidate who won did so by quite a bit larger margin than Obama did in 2008. As we saw from the hack of the DNC's email, there were DNC staff who favored Clinton — but those emails were from May, when the nomination was already hers and the argument that Sanders should step aside was a rational one. And the superdelegates had no impact on the outcome, since Clinton won the most pledged delegates.
Maybe there's other stuff; like I say this hasn't been an obsession of mine.
This conviction that it's the DNC's fault that Trump got elected is bullshit. You know whose fault it is that he got elected? The shitty, shitty, shitty people who knowingly voted for a racist, xenophobic, sexist, ignorant, impulsive, violent, unqualified dumpster fire of a human internet troll. You know who else's fault it is? The shitty, shitty people who failed to vote for HRC, the only candidate who could oppose him.
I don't care if the democratic candidate is Kermit the Frog, or twelve years old, or a frickin' TV psychic, when Trump is the alternative, you fucking vote for them, you fucking fucks.
Oppo research?! You think that would have made even a tiny difference in this campaign? For reals? That sounds like a great premise for an SNL sketch.
Besides, a creative writing piece vs an actual rape charge? I'm sure Bernie would have loved to have that debate.
And why did DWS resign if everything was rainbows and sunshine?
If I'm understanding your argument, it's that racism didn't drive the Trump vote. Okay. I'm not sure I agree, but okay.
Yes, that's my point. We need to understand why we lose if we want to win. Democrats want to be right more than they want to win. Calling all Trump voters racist without looking at why people voted for Obama twice and then Trump pretty much guarantees this will happen again.
But 60 million people voting for this guy is a good sign of a deep and loathsome racism. Shouldn't just about anybody have been able to beat him? Especially the most qualified candidate to ever run for the office…
The most qualified candidate hasn't won a presidential election for a while. And I totally agree that just about anybody could have beat him. Hence the frustration that the Democrats managed to nominate one of the very few that could not.
You have too narrow a view of what racism is; of all the root causes you're naming, none preclude it. Honestly, I think some of your specific assumptions are off. I.e. White women and people who vote for Obama can't be racist. I'm a white woman; in my experience, everything I've learned about white supremacy has only deepened my ability to understand contemporary and historical events... it's not separate from anything in the US, it's of it.
Yeah, saying people can't be racist because they voted for Obama, is like when the awful director of the video for Blurred Lines told me she can't be racist because she dated a black guy once.
Oh why don't I go learn about how racism is a false flag from this white guy. Even though he's white, he knows what's up, because he uses the only tool that is pure from the influences of racishism and gender politics and all that stupid crap... LOGIC!!! and FACT!!!
- Talks about the "horrifying indictment of our political discourse." Yes, what's horrifying is how lame everyone is at rhetoric, not that Breitbart could be at the helm of this ship. - Uses, as proof of his argument, photo-ops of Tr*** pandering to "the minorities..." including the taco bowl tweet - Proves that there can't be that many racist people because he counted all the racist people (yes, he does, using multiple sources of polls and numbers from the Southern Poverty Law center!!!!!!!!) - Goes on for a couple of paragraphs about his theory that he doubts "dog whistle" language exists - Compares today's "calling someone racist" to yesterday's "calling someone a Communist"
So, there you go.
I would pay $100 right now to feel, for 10 minutes, the way a guy who thinks like that feels. The sheer pleasure of all that confidence and certainty, knowing I have made a rock-hard argument that no inanity can pierce.
I don't think I can ever change someone's mind... why would you want to be right when it feels soooo good to have your head up your ass?
People like that think racism is like... a type of exotic dog sub breed. "Oh that's not racism, look at the ear shape. The tail is also 5 degrees too high. NEXT!"
I think all ya'll are right, pinning a large amount of blame on the DNC for the nomination process is not valid. They put a thumb on the scale, but Bernie's campaign made some mis-steps early on. Just frustrating to see that our primary process came *this* close to giving us the outsider candidate we needed, and after Obama's primary I believed the Dems were smarter than that.
Two things; racism is hard, we can't fix it in the next couple of election cycles so I have a tendency to focus on where I think progressives can move the needle politically. And I think we on the left are making a huge mistake if our primary takeaway is that this election was a whitelash, or a wave of support for Trump's racist remarks.
The blue wall crumbled because folks can't feed a family with a single full-time job and it's been getting worse for decades. Our takeaway should be to frame every issue around how it helps/hurts the working class, go back to the OFA style grassroots and structure the primaries to find the most competitive candidate.
Oh and re: Ellison I think we need Howard back at the DNC. Or if not him, someone who is not a currently serving elected official. This shit is obviously a full time job.
PS: Everyone is freaking out about how the Simpsons predicted the future but how about TMBG? "This is where the party ends", indeed.
"[The political opposition] was so rabidly obsessed with his personality that any substantive political debate disappeared; it focused only on personal attacks, the effect of which was to increase Mr. Berlusconi’s popularity. His secret was an ability to set off a Pavlovian reaction among his leftist opponents, which engendered instantaneous sympathy in most moderate voters.
I mean, you should watch it @Loose_Thread. It's short. I mean you don't have to. I don't know if I would endorse what he is saying or how he is saying it, but I think he hits on something in his seemingly faux rage thing.
Also, I heard someone say (paraphrased) "Southern conservatives will welcome minorities into their town and as neighbors as long as they don't get too uppity. Liberal people are open minded and respect minority rights but they don't want to live next to them." Kinda ugly talk, but I think it is a good reminder that we are all racist and sexist and generally prejudice in our own way. Not just Trump voters. I've been telling myself this lately. It helps remind me to keep my tolerance and love quota up and my anger and hate quota down.
Wow, that was really, really bad. @Thor, I don't know how you got through red-faced, screaming Fauntleroy even once. It was like having my amygdala tortured with fire ants. But, in the interest of discussion & persuasion (tm) I watched it a few times to better debunk his arrogant, incorrect, 9th-grade-level understanding of US culture, politics, and media. I'm also not sure why you put a link to it because, if you read your posts, you didn't actually articulate any opinions you had on it so I am not even sure if you will agree or disagree with me or what...
But before I get to that, back to your comment. If by your second paragraph your meaning is that Dems can uphold white supremacy as well as any Republican, I agree... we could come up with many examples. So, if you agree with Fauntleroy that "the left did this," and also that white liberals are part of a racist society, that proves my point: white supremacy is a pretty big f****** deal that I, personally and collectively, want to study and interrupt.
Here are some of the things he got wrong:
"Not everyone who voted for Trump was a sexist or a racist."
This is dumb. If he wants to preach at me, he had at least better know what the hell he's talking about. I dare Fauntleroy to explain to me, using facts, history and critical analysis, how it works that a person can be a US citizen, vote in the election for any party, and not simultaneously be a part of a greater social structure that evolved on the basis of white supremacy. This is exactly the "counting angels on a pinhead" school of thought that I was talking about earlier. He doesn't see the forest for the trees, it's not about categorizing and quantifying what exactly racism is and isn't, it's about engaging with the idea that the whole damn forest is made of freaking racism. Which is what I am asking people to consider if they want to talk about forest ecology.
"If my mansplaining is triggering you, you can either fuck off to your safe space or you can engage and debate me and tell me what I'm getting wrong."
I'm just gonna leave that there in the hopes that it speaks for itself as a dealbreaker for any intellectual standing this guy might have. If not, I would have to ask you to explain why to me it is right, rather than me try to break down in baby talk why it is a complete pile of garbage.
"Being offended doesn't work anymore. Throwing insults doesn't work anymore."
What an asinine, meaningless thing to say... as if taking offense is something that one should stop doing. Or that taking offense is in itself a grandiose, self-indulgent pageant enacted for the benefit of the offender, meant as some kind of punishment, instead of what it is: the natural, emotional response to witnessing unfairness. He doesn't really have a position... "being offended doesn't work anymore..." when did "being offended" work, and what exactly did it do, work for what, etc.? It's just a different way of saying "PC culture has gone too far." Honestly this guy sounds like a right-wing plant.
How could you possibly think he has anything of value to offer me?
I guess hearing that guy [from the Youtube video above] tell me to be nice when I explain reality to him made me decide to communicate my disagreement with his moral position in a really blatant way. You might think that is rude, but if you had an hour, I could go on about how it serves me as a potent avenue of subversion, and that disrupting the status quo is an issue of survival that I take seriously, personally.
In my own life... when I have been met with words or actions that have threatened me, it has just worked out that, when it ended positively for me, a lot of the time my solution involved kind of putting the smack down. I know about kindness, and I know about the Power of Love, but these political conversations aren't that. That guy's oration reveals (either a cheap exploitation of such or) an embarrassing, adult illiteracy of human psychology and social interaction.
If anyone is still reading, I wonder if I may offer some conversational fare perhaps more suited to congeniality. Thinking about your own life... what are some times that you have addressed disagreements, seemingly incompatible, with someone, and turned the conversation more positively? When have you seen a liberally-minded person persuade a conservative person into having a change of heart, and what can we all learn from that?
Hmm...I hear you. Maybe he didn't have anything to offer you, but I guess I had seen this video going around a bunch and I thought it hit on some sort of middle America rage that resonates with some of my family members and with that part of middle right America whose needle can still be pushed towards more reasonable positions. He says a lot of bullshit, but I think in essence it's a shitty diatribe version of the everyone is in their own bubble commentary. That second quote of his you address is super shitty BUT I think that is sorta the idea right? It is VERY possible I am giving him more credit than he deserves but I think the idea of that horrifying quote (and maybe his offensiveness in general) is that people should not disengage with him or people who say stuff like that just because it is horrifyingly ignorant or loud. I think, in fact, me using the word 'horrifying' is a problem. There is war everywhere and I am using the word horrifying for one dudes crappy talk? That's dumb.
Anyhow, I think there is a lot of anger from people feeling like they weren't given a chance to understand or take a more reasonable position on a lot of modern social norms. Everyone writes each other off so quickly anymore, and I think that scares a lot of people who live in rural areas who don't have to time to keep up with all the social change of the world. They must see stories like some old ladies pie shop refusing to make a pie for a gay marriage and suddenly being all over the news and it must be frightening to them. Probably goes without saying, but I'm not defending the position of the hypothetical pie lady. I am just trying to empathize with people who I don't think deserve to be written off or deserve to be scared of it. On larger scales, I can't even imagine what it is like to be famous. You do one thing wrong or have one shitty position and there are so many liberal minded people who will write you off for the rest of your and their lives like the whole of the human race's opinions lost the ability to evolve and everyone forgot about forgiveness. Look at your buddies in Yacht! I don't have a doubt in my mind that they learned from and truly regret their mistake a little while back, but there are probably a ton of people who will never let them escape that one screw up. That sucks. In a lot of ways the bubble of being famous and the bubble of living in a rural farm area are probably a lot alike. I don't know. People are free to do as they please I guess, but I think people write each other off too quickly and permanently. I've done it. Most people on this board have done it. Conservatives have done it. Yacht I'm sure have done it. Most people have. Life is exhausting. It is easier to just write someone off sometimes even if it is maybe unfair. There is so much stuff to pay attention to now, and I get that people should pay some consequences for being bigots or perpetuating hate. I just think ostracization is becoming people's go to reaction and that sucks and is just creating more bigotry and hate. I don't have any great suggestions.
That Patton Oswald video sucks! He wants to appear to support identity politics as long as it doesn’t inconvenience him. "Ru Paul got in trouble for saying 't*****.'" WHOA PATTON. Ru Paul is not a transgender woman. Ru Paul is the stage name of a cisgender performer. But instead of just leaving that distinction up to the people who identified it, he’s got to make fun of it? His ego must be so inflated and unfettered if he thinks THAT’S an inconvenience. He feels “corrected” and he's like "hey freak, don't put me on the spot, I'm on your team!”
Do you know "punching up"/"punching down?" Mr. Progressive's joke wasn't about the awkwardness he felt in navigating evolving social expectations, or an honest admission that he has a hard time with learning new words, or an insider's perspective on LGBT conversations... instead, he punched down, then congratulated himself on his "live and let live" policy. Then, the people get to laugh off their tension and frustration at this crazy, judgmental world!!! At the expense of whom? Not at the violent people who have created an environment of terror and death, but at the people who suffer from it!!! Yeah, freedom from accountability I mean expression!!!
Comments
Poor & working class people (of all races) ARE disenfranchised, as a class, and are absolutely right to blame establishment politics (repub and dem) for that disenfranchisement. They are also correct--just like the "leave" voters in Brexit are correct--that free trade and globalization do not serve their interests but only the interests of capitalists and corporations.
Authoritarian regimes are unfortunately adept at seizing on very legitimate economic concerns and ascribing those concerns to immigrants, Jews, Turks, Mexicans, whoever is the Other-du-jour of a given time/place. It's crazy to see it working yet again now, even after the civil rights movement, our collective horror about the holocaust, etc. But it's happening, here, for real. Just like in France, in the UK.
So class and economic disenfranchisement is certainly a big part of this (as we saw with the crazy cross-party love for bernie as well) but also white supremacy. White people OF ALL CLASSES AND GENDERS voted for Trump in droves. Rich whites! Educated whites! They voted against every other kind of self-interest in favor of their self-interest as whites. It's shattering to contemplate
i don't totally understand what is happening, and I know smarter people than I are arguing right now about whether racism or economics played a bigger role...I think it's both; I definitely think a nation that adequately supports its working class (a class which we should remember comprises non-white as well as white people) instead of working them to death like mules has fewer problems with white racism. And it's clear that working class people voted for OBAMA twice and then this time voted for Trump, clearly (I think) signaling that for lots of voters it really was about voting for the candidate who was not a corporate establishment pol like Clinton (and less about racism).
But it's also clear that millions of white people did vote for him because they are white supremacists. Millions of whites who ARENT disenfranchised came out strong for Trump, and to me that can only be white supremacy rearing up against the encroachments of minorities on mainstream american culture.
Oh yeah and everyone fucking despises women, surely that didn't help
But yeah. To say white supremacy had nothing to do with this election seems extremely blinkered and dangerous. Only white people are capable of believing that, I think, which is exactly LT's point--we (white ppl) get to be blissfully unaware of the very real and widespread and FOCUSED racism shaping our country. Time for some hard self scrutiny for us.
In all of the pieces you listed, every single one is connected to racism. I don't mean racism as a bad attitude, I mean the actual, historical events of intentional genocide. There is a whole lot to be said about the layers of misogyny, sexism, and racism that caused white women to vote for Dickturd.* The whole image of feminine virtue that is behind this type of sexism, it is built upon framing white women as different and better than black women, period, because of the history of slavery, Jim Crow in this country. So yes, white supremacy drives just about any American ill, and I am waiting for the rest of you to internalize that and see what we can do to deconstruct it.
*Sorry, I've never said anything that gross in my life, but it has the right consonants and seems apt
This sort of thinking is going to keep liberals marching toward the cliff.
Look, millions of white supremacists vote for the Republicans every cycle. It's called the Southern Strategy and it's been happening since the Civil Rights Act. Again, I'm not saying that white supremacy isn't a big problem, it's just a known quantity in national elections.
Millions of whites who ARENT disenfranchised came out strong for Trump, and to me that can only be white supremacy rearing up against the encroachments of minorities on mainstream american culture.
My white, comfortably retired parents on government pensions and healthcare voted against Hillary because they are Baptist culture warrior, low-information voters who get their news from MSM TV, christian radio and Facebook. Low/middle class republicans have been conditioned to vote against their best interests for almost 40 years -- they don't care (or realize) how conservative policies will hurt them.
Big picture. Let's back up a little, it's late 2014. Ebola and Malaysian Airlines are all over the news. Ever since the tea-party movement we've had an ultra-polarized electorate, the dems haven't tacked on a "3rd term" since FDR and it's looking to be an anti-establishment cycle like nothing we've ever seen. Dems been burned recently with the electoral college so they know they need to win by a decent margin. All common sense would say use the primaries as a battle of ideas and find out who can craft the message that best appeals to rural/suburban swing voters in FL/OH/NC/CO/NH.
It was easy to see this coming, I was hopeful at the beginning of the primary season because we were able to keep HRC from the nomination once and it looked like we could do it again. But it didn't happen, and the GOP primaries did what the primaries are supposed to do and whittled down the field to the strongest candidate-- in this case the change-agent-above-all-else. The DNC on the other hand offered an arch-establishment politician with no clear message or agenda for the non-partisan voter, who's decades of "scandals" provided the opposition with the perfect GOTV messaging. Game, set and Trump.
Obviously there's always been racism, obviously racism is always at play in elections/everything, but the extremity and jubilant openness of it, as well as the violence of it among ordinary citizens (i.e. not just cops) right now to me seems unprecedented, more like Reconstruction or the 1960s than like anything I have personally been alive to see. I just don't understand how anyone can shrug it off as normal or the usual stuff. I feel like this is how fascism wins, when we all refuse to call it by its name. What we are seeing is literally and actually: an authoritarian, explicitly white nationalist regime taking power, that has the support of the FBI, large sections of the military, the police, the prison system, the Supreme Court, and all three branches of government. That does not seem precedented to me, in modern American history.
Also what is the "cliff" you are describing?? Is the "cliff" us no longer accepting bullshit candidates like HRC and going full socialist? If so then let me be first to jump the fuck off that cliff
I would LOVE to be wrong on this. I would love it so much. But right now I am not seeing that this is a normal political moment for the U.S.
Maybe I am mis-reading the situation but it's hard for me to see how. I'm also influenced by the fact that literally ALL the POC intellectuals and writers I follow and read the work of are saying this election was about white supremacy; I feel like taking that opinion into account is important.
So much about this election is unprecedented (he might be the first sitting president to face trial for raping a child, e.g., pretty unusual) but the normalizing of white supremacy as a legitimate political orientation seems part of that, to me.
I dunno
I don't know anything
I also miss Joey
Facetweet I guess I'm wondering... why bother with making this argument? Why do you think it's important to downplay the influence? Why should I think of white supremacy a red herring?
In regards to your comment on the Southern Strategy, my point is that that the "known quantity" metric was waaay off. A lot of dems think the worse is behind us; segregationists are old and dying. The Southern Strategy and the Civil Rights Act are happening now. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?
The more I think about how to engage with this direction of liberal strategy, the more I think it has to do with a lack of education, not opinion. I know how condescending that is but I don't know how else to put it. Here is what I mean, specifically. Are you arguing that this is not a fact?
YT, you're not wrong and you're not crazy--people like us need to get a way bigger attitude about challenging other people's dumb ideas!!
Joey would be spanking people left and right
That is what the power of white supremacy represents, and that is why I am so insistent that my fellow whities start taking it seriously... and personally. I mean, this stuff is going to change all of our lives, and the people crying "white supremacy" are the people who know the most about the situation, and we should be listening to them.
White people are downplaying the danger because we don't know how good we've had it.
This shit is maybe the thing killing us the most, not just politically but on most social fronts.
I think the cliff is turning into a moderate conservative party to battle the GOPs lurch to the right. Which I guess means we're hurtling down already since Clinton I was the best Republican president we've ever had.
A lot of dems think the worse is behind us; segregationists are old and dying. The Southern Strategy and the Civil Rights Act are happening now. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?
It is certainly happening now. It's a vote the GOP counts on like the DNC counts on the black vote. But the country didn't become more racist since 2008 creating a couple million extra Republican votes.
The extra votes were grumpy rural downwardly mobile rustbelt conservatives who haven't voted in 10+ years and saw this as their way to stick a spoke in the wheel of guvmint. Add that to the lost evangelical culture warriors still more scared of abortion and the war on Christmas than a reality TV star in the whitehouse, and the 30% of the US that are GOP True Believers, and you've got yourself a winning coalition.
Also this: ^^^ see that's some of that white supremacy. The GOP has been fomenting them with it since 2008. Because Black President. Honestly this isn't that hard
Growing up in the South, I saw a lot of open racism, and I felt like we had made a lot of progress since then, but it's sad to see that people were just waiting to feel like they were "on top" so that they could strike it up again.
I've been a sporadic donor to both but giving monthly is best for signaling to them that you'll be an ongoing contributor going forward.
I'm also going to start routinely calling all my representatives and clearly telling them what I want them to support/resist. This thread: https://storify.com/editoremilye/i-worked-for-congress-for-six-years
And I'm going to subscribe to leftist publications like Jacobin, to glean talking points and to learn about calls to specific action. And join these guys: http://www.dsausa.org
And links to click-bait news articles aside, the number of hate groups as tracked by SPLC is lower now than 2008. Granted there has been a big rise of "patriot" groups since that time, but left-wing hate groups have also jumped.
I'm not saying America isn't racist. I'm just saying that is not (even close) to the reason we elected Trump. And I agree that it's not that hard. Michael Moore saw this coming, fuck even Cheryl Mills saw it. All of us who became Dems to vote against HRC in the primaries, knowing she would drive dittohead turnout and suppress liberal-leaning independents, knew it. There was no upside to her campaign. The only person she might have beat in that whole clown car was Bush. Maybe Cruz too just because he's so creepy.
Try to keep in mind I'm taking purely about the politics of the situation, not the morals when I say HRC was out-flanked electorally by Trump's populism not his hate speech.
The reason I harp on this isn't to win internet argument points, but to try to convince other progressives that live under a political system that includes an electoral college, low voter participation and a fact-free media landscape that we need to be laser focused on building a movement for all 50 states that results in a majority coalition. If we get 51% of the popular vote, the electoral college takes care of itself.
Signed,
A newly party-unaffiliated progressive donor.
PS: Speaking of a 50-state strategy at the DNC, what the fuck ever happened to Howard Dean?
Sexism played a part, to think otherwise is to be blind.
The above said, most Trump supporters voted for him despite what he said, not because of it.
Hillary was obviously not the strongest candidate in a head to head contest, the polls showed that last year. Even though the cross hairs were never on Bernie, he would have had a stronger change message and fewer scandals.
The FBI (Comey) played a part, the dive was huge.
The fact that the Dems have failed to win three terms 4 out of their past 5 attempts is a huge indicator.
The fact that I (a somewhat to pretty informed) Hillary supporter had no idea what her plan was for ex steel workers in Penn, or etc... is a big deal. What, they are supposed to be retrained in tech? C'mon. Everyone knows that is bull. Will Trump do better? No, but he was angry the way they were.
No one can win running a policy of "more of the same." Even when "the same" has a higher popularity rating than Reagan.
Who bears the ultimate responsibility? The DNC. Those people get paid to know all of the above, and they ignored it. They thought they had a wall and sat back behind it. Post election, I feel like one of the fancy people living on the top of Metropolis. Trumps supporters see themselves as the guys on the bottom working the machines, while we coastal elites are going to Heart and getting precious as hell about a cupping (just an example, if that is your thing that is cool).
Last month I started learning how to cook. Me and the GF used trial coupons of the mail order recipe ingredient packages. I posted photos on Facebook with the hashtag "CookingForBey." That was both true and kind of a snarky joke based on the awful tumblr. But in hindsight, that is so elitist. I can afford these bougie meal services and plate my food, and then reference a tumblr of nasty looking food. That is total bubble elitism. I blame myself.
I don't follow. I'm not sure how much plainer I can put it. My hypothesis: America is racist and sexist, but these are not the reasons Trump is in the white house. The reason for that is due to our center-left political party choosing an obviously fatally flawed candidate and then living inside a 2012 political bubble instead of fighting for 2016 votes. (Did HRC even visit WI?)
Another angle; white privilege means that white people got those no-college required blue collar jobs more than minorities, so when the economy changed white people were adversely affected more than minorities. This is why pundits can talk of rust belt white middle class voters' interests as a block. They are (largely) the pissed off ones because they have to work at McDonalds instead of GM. Or the union job dad had that provided a middle class lifestyle for the whole family now barely covers rent when Jr. joins the factory.
So what mental gymnastics are you using to explain his appointment of Stephen K. Bannon to be the chief strategist of his cabinet?
Even if Trump comes out as secret head of the KKK tonight it doesn't have a bearing on my argument here. Every bit of post election analysis I've read has shown HRC couldn't turn out her base, win white women or get near Obama's margins with voters under 30. Against Trump. Until 2020, anything that distracts liberals from figuring out how and why that happened is a liability.
If I'm understanding your argument, it's that racism didn't drive the Trump vote. Okay. I'm not sure I agree, but okay.
But 60 million people voting for this guy is a good sign of a deep and loathsome racism. Shouldn't just about anybody have been able to beat him? Especially the most qualified candidate to ever run for the office…
also, what Zin said
Literally anyone (me, an unborn fetus, a dead cat) will be better than Wasserman-Schultz and her various dipshit cronies, so on that level alone I hope this happens. But interested in actual discussion of Ellison himself, what do you people say?
just set up my monthly ACLU donation and sent my colleague a requested reading list of leftist/marxist stuff, so feeling a bit better today. One thing I'm considering, in the wake of some distraught conversations with colleagues, is trying to compile some resources for teachers/professors for ways to re-approach classroom teaching in the face of fascism. This is very specific/specialized but if anyone has seen anything cool along these lines please pass it on.
I'll send you anything I come across.
also, they seem pretty powerful, given the way they were able to railroad HRC through the primary process. The superdelegate concept is really fucking crazy to me...
There were more debates, with more viewers, than in 2008 or 2004. The candidate who won did so by quite a bit larger margin than Obama did in 2008. As we saw from the hack of the DNC's email, there were DNC staff who favored Clinton — but those emails were from May, when the nomination was already hers and the argument that Sanders should step aside was a rational one. And the superdelegates had no impact on the outcome, since Clinton won the most pledged delegates.
Maybe there's other stuff; like I say this hasn't been an obsession of mine.
I don't care if the democratic candidate is Kermit the Frog, or twelve years old, or a frickin' TV psychic, when Trump is the alternative, you fucking vote for them, you fucking fucks.
Besides, a creative writing piece vs an actual rape charge? I'm sure Bernie would have loved to have that debate.
And why did DWS resign if everything was rainbows and sunshine?
If I'm understanding your argument, it's that racism didn't drive the Trump vote. Okay. I'm not sure I agree, but okay.
Yes, that's my point. We need to understand why we lose if we want to win. Democrats want to be right more than they want to win. Calling all Trump voters racist without looking at why people voted for Obama twice and then Trump pretty much guarantees this will happen again.
But 60 million people voting for this guy is a good sign of a deep and loathsome racism. Shouldn't just about anybody have been able to beat him? Especially the most qualified candidate to ever run for the office…
The most qualified candidate hasn't won a presidential election for a while. And I totally agree that just about anybody could have beat him. Hence the frustration that the Democrats managed to nominate one of the very few that could not.
slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
- Talks about the "horrifying indictment of our political discourse." Yes, what's horrifying is how lame everyone is at rhetoric, not that Breitbart could be at the helm of this ship.
- Uses, as proof of his argument, photo-ops of Tr*** pandering to "the minorities..." including the taco bowl tweet
- Proves that there can't be that many racist people because he counted all the racist people (yes, he does, using multiple sources of polls and numbers from the Southern Poverty Law center!!!!!!!!)
- Goes on for a couple of paragraphs about his theory that he doubts "dog whistle" language exists
- Compares today's "calling someone racist" to yesterday's "calling someone a Communist"
So, there you go.
I would pay $100 right now to feel, for 10 minutes, the way a guy who thinks like that feels. The sheer pleasure of all that confidence and certainty, knowing I have made a rock-hard argument that no inanity can pierce.
I don't think I can ever change someone's mind... why would you want to be right when it feels soooo good to have your head up your ass?
Two things; racism is hard, we can't fix it in the next couple of election cycles so I have a tendency to focus on where I think progressives can move the needle politically. And I think we on the left are making a huge mistake if our primary takeaway is that this election was a whitelash, or a wave of support for Trump's racist remarks.
The blue wall crumbled because folks can't feed a family with a single full-time job and it's been getting worse for decades. Our takeaway should be to frame every issue around how it helps/hurts the working class, go back to the OFA style grassroots and structure the primaries to find the most competitive candidate.
Oh and re: Ellison I think we need Howard back at the DNC. Or if not him, someone who is not a currently serving elected official. This shit is obviously a full time job.
PS: Everyone is freaking out about how the Simpsons predicted the future but how about TMBG? "This is where the party ends", indeed.
Too white, didn't watch
lol I'm trollin'
Seriously though, what does he say? You have to editorialize it in some way
Also, I heard someone say (paraphrased) "Southern conservatives will welcome minorities into their town and as neighbors as long as they don't get too uppity. Liberal people are open minded and respect minority rights but they don't want to live next to them." Kinda ugly talk, but I think it is a good reminder that we are all racist and sexist and generally prejudice in our own way. Not just Trump voters. I've been telling myself this lately. It helps remind me to keep my tolerance and love quota up and my anger and hate quota down.
But before I get to that, back to your comment. If by your second paragraph your meaning is that Dems can uphold white supremacy as well as any Republican, I agree... we could come up with many examples. So, if you agree with Fauntleroy that "the left did this," and also that white liberals are part of a racist society, that proves my point: white supremacy is a pretty big f****** deal that I, personally and collectively, want to study and interrupt.
Here are some of the things he got wrong: This is dumb. If he wants to preach at me, he had at least better know what the hell he's talking about. I dare Fauntleroy to explain to me, using facts, history and critical analysis, how it works that a person can be a US citizen, vote in the election for any party, and not simultaneously be a part of a greater social structure that evolved on the basis of white supremacy. This is exactly the "counting angels on a pinhead" school of thought that I was talking about earlier. He doesn't see the forest for the trees, it's not about categorizing and quantifying what exactly racism is and isn't, it's about engaging with the idea that the whole damn forest is made of freaking racism. Which is what I am asking people to consider if they want to talk about forest ecology. I'm just gonna leave that there in the hopes that it speaks for itself as a dealbreaker for any intellectual standing this guy might have. If not, I would have to ask you to explain why to me it is right, rather than me try to break down in baby talk why it is a complete pile of garbage. What an asinine, meaningless thing to say... as if taking offense is something that one should stop doing. Or that taking offense is in itself a grandiose, self-indulgent pageant enacted for the benefit of the offender, meant as some kind of punishment, instead of what it is: the natural, emotional response to witnessing unfairness. He doesn't really have a position... "being offended doesn't work anymore..." when did "being offended" work, and what exactly did it do, work for what, etc.? It's just a different way of saying "PC culture has gone too far." Honestly this guy sounds like a right-wing plant.
How could you possibly think he has anything of value to offer me?
In my own life... when I have been met with words or actions that have threatened me, it has just worked out that, when it ended positively for me, a lot of the time my solution involved kind of putting the smack down. I know about kindness, and I know about the Power of Love, but these political conversations aren't that. That guy's oration reveals (either a cheap exploitation of such or) an embarrassing, adult illiteracy of human psychology and social interaction.
If anyone is still reading, I wonder if I may offer some conversational fare perhaps more suited to congeniality. Thinking about your own life... what are some times that you have addressed disagreements, seemingly incompatible, with someone, and turned the conversation more positively? When have you seen a liberally-minded person persuade a conservative person into having a change of heart, and what can we all learn from that?
Anyhow, I think there is a lot of anger from people feeling like they weren't given a chance to understand or take a more reasonable position on a lot of modern social norms. Everyone writes each other off so quickly anymore, and I think that scares a lot of people who live in rural areas who don't have to time to keep up with all the social change of the world. They must see stories like some old ladies pie shop refusing to make a pie for a gay marriage and suddenly being all over the news and it must be frightening to them. Probably goes without saying, but I'm not defending the position of the hypothetical pie lady. I am just trying to empathize with people who I don't think deserve to be written off or deserve to be scared of it. On larger scales, I can't even imagine what it is like to be famous. You do one thing wrong or have one shitty position and there are so many liberal minded people who will write you off for the rest of your and their lives like the whole of the human race's opinions lost the ability to evolve and everyone forgot about forgiveness. Look at your buddies in Yacht! I don't have a doubt in my mind that they learned from and truly regret their mistake a little while back, but there are probably a ton of people who will never let them escape that one screw up. That sucks. In a lot of ways the bubble of being famous and the bubble of living in a rural farm area are probably a lot alike. I don't know. People are free to do as they please I guess, but I think people write each other off too quickly and permanently. I've done it. Most people on this board have done it. Conservatives have done it. Yacht I'm sure have done it. Most people have. Life is exhausting. It is easier to just write someone off sometimes even if it is maybe unfair. There is so much stuff to pay attention to now, and I get that people should pay some consequences for being bigots or perpetuating hate. I just think ostracization is becoming people's go to reaction and that sucks and is just creating more bigotry and hate. I don't have any great suggestions.
Here's a better video:
Do you know "punching up"/"punching down?" Mr. Progressive's joke wasn't about the awkwardness he felt in navigating evolving social expectations, or an honest admission that he has a hard time with learning new words, or an insider's perspective on LGBT conversations... instead, he punched down, then congratulated himself on his "live and let live" policy. Then, the people get to laugh off their tension and frustration at this crazy, judgmental world!!! At the expense of whom? Not at the violent people who have created an environment of terror and death, but at the people who suffer from it!!! Yeah, freedom from accountability I mean expression!!!