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In this Discussion
- 1234 December 2012
- distant_shoe December 2012
- ed_chigliak December 2012
- flossy_log_lady December 2012
- joey August 2012
- kdawg December 2012
- Leland December 2012
- Loose_Thread December 2012
- Marcus August 2012
- MirandaJuly December 2012
- Schlabe December 2012
- swamp_knobbler_mahan August 2012
- the_owls December 2012
- YoursTruly August 2012
- zin December 2012
How we feel about Kickstarter.
A publisher I appreciate and admire wrote a thing on the Comics Journal recently and started a debate among readers:
"Guess what? You don’t get to call yourself underground if you’re on Kickstarter. Guess what else? You don’t get to call yourself a publisher either; you’re just someone who pays a printing bill. Take pre-orders on your site. Sell your boots. Do what you have to do. But don’t go begging for money so that you can then give 5% of it to Amazon.com, which is actively trying to put you (!), and the stores you hope to shove this shit into, out of business."
It was interesting to read an opinion in the context of comic book publishing, because I feel like every conversation I've had was mostly focused on musicians funding their project this way and the annoyance felt at getting requests for funding left and right.
I didn't know that 5% of what one makes on Kickstarter goes to Amazon, I mean, I assumed there was something shady about it, since Amazon was involved, but I feel especially sickened when the "putting stores out of business" parallel is drawn. Part of me was being a little naive/hopeful that Amazon was donating whatever service charges to the fundraisers.
Anyway, I started a new thread, because the other ones have grown past the conversation about Kickstarter.
I am personally wondering if I will keep donating to Kickstarter-funded projects. As much as I like to support artists, do I want to keep on supporting Amazon? I was doing so well, not buying anything from them, and then found a small publisher in England who's books are only available in the U.S. through that site, the publisher doesn't even ship internationally...
Should I have not bought the books?
"Guess what? You don’t get to call yourself underground if you’re on Kickstarter. Guess what else? You don’t get to call yourself a publisher either; you’re just someone who pays a printing bill. Take pre-orders on your site. Sell your boots. Do what you have to do. But don’t go begging for money so that you can then give 5% of it to Amazon.com, which is actively trying to put you (!), and the stores you hope to shove this shit into, out of business."
It was interesting to read an opinion in the context of comic book publishing, because I feel like every conversation I've had was mostly focused on musicians funding their project this way and the annoyance felt at getting requests for funding left and right.
I didn't know that 5% of what one makes on Kickstarter goes to Amazon, I mean, I assumed there was something shady about it, since Amazon was involved, but I feel especially sickened when the "putting stores out of business" parallel is drawn. Part of me was being a little naive/hopeful that Amazon was donating whatever service charges to the fundraisers.
Anyway, I started a new thread, because the other ones have grown past the conversation about Kickstarter.
I am personally wondering if I will keep donating to Kickstarter-funded projects. As much as I like to support artists, do I want to keep on supporting Amazon? I was doing so well, not buying anything from them, and then found a small publisher in England who's books are only available in the U.S. through that site, the publisher doesn't even ship internationally...
Should I have not bought the books?
Comments
Is there an alternative to Kickstarter, and are they part of a huge corporation?
Personally I will continue to fund projects that my friends put on Kickstarter. I _could_ just go to them and hand them cash and be like "shh, for your project," but then that cash wouldn't be counted toward their goal, which of course cannot be partially met and still funded. I am new to giving on Kickstarter so I haven't gotten tired of it yet. Plus I am not on *ace Boo* so I don't get burned out.
I still think Kickstarter is good if it funnels money to an artist or musician or whatever. I feel we need to get used to sharing our money, not just for goods, but as investments for ideas. For example, in the US, since our taxes are not going to art programs, we have to suck it up and find a way to put money there anyway. My first boyfriend made a big impression on me. At house shows, he would throw $100 into the bucket for the touring band. He had a modest income, but was an old punk and so considered it small change for the privilege of supporting art. I have been a selfish little miser for a long time, but now I am coming around to wanting to be a patron like that...
I think that fundraisers=good, Amazon=bad. What if a small independent company made open source fundraising software? Would you embrace the model, then?
Thing is, I probably will still back most projects by people I like on Kickstater. I just feel like the publisher quoted above has a good point. SOME people who already have a website with a decent amount of traffic could fund projects with pre-orders. Others don't have that luxury. Kickstarter seems like the only way for a lot of people.
What I have a harder time with in this day and age of the internet is this style of making a certain place your one-stop internet everything. Like a couple years ago I was so mad at *ace boo* and the way people around me who don't spend that much time online treated it. It was like an internet supermarket, limiting people's curiosity and the effort one would put into communicating others. If it's not on *ace boo*, then they don't know about it, or if your not on *ace boo* then you are going to be out of touch with the picnics, the family outings, the births, the weddings, and so on and so forth.
Now it feels a bit similar with funding projects. If it's not on Kickstarter, people are not as likely to fund it. Making an offer similar to Alan's will probably go unheard. If it's on Kickstarter, it's official, you are asking for money, people can pledge in the comfort of a fancily designed website, but ultimately, the risk is the same. There is no guarantee of receiving the thing you gave the person money for.
P.S.: I am not on *ace boo* either.
So fundraising=good, corporation=bad. Then there is a need for an independent developer to make an open-source fundraising software, right?
No sooner than my last comment did I receive an email inviting me to Kickstart a type of comic festival. This fundraiser is to cover travel costs for visiting artists.
I think it's more bad-ass and punk to try to do it by relying on your own means and not enriching the pockets of Amazon.
But I know know some people who are really bad-ass and legit who did get projects funded through Kickstarter. I don't think it necessarily erases how legit and awesome you are, but I do think that there is something even more awesome about pulling it off without their help.
I am an anarchist (mostly) and I get government funding once in a while. That's pretty weird. I question it over and over in my head, and as much as I feel a bit hypocritical, that dumb easy argument of "If I don't ask for it, I won't get the money and someone else who is working on a dumber project might get it." has won me over.
I do think that I shouldn't apply for a grant for a while. I should feel things out and see if the last one has "kickstarted" me enough.
I say let's eliminate evil one step at a time. To quit an Amazon addiction seems easier to me than to stop using Paypal, or a credit card.
Something else I should have clarified: when the publisher above made that "You don't get to call yourself underground" remark, it was directly aimed at the Kickstarter project in question in which the dudes make a point of calling themselves underground publishers while they have never published a book before.
I like making things in smaller batches and the idea of great success mostly overwhelms me. I don't think I'd be able to do my thing at a larger mainstream scale, the pressure would get to me. I also seek other artists that share similar ways of doing things, we can relate one another easily.
That doesn't mean that "mainstream popularity" doesn't work for others.
In this case, what I think the publisher was saying is "You guys are taking great pride in being "underground", "being independent" and bragging about it while getting funding from an Amazon affiliated company."
---
As you know, every Kickstarter project has a funding goal and deadline, both of which are determined by the project creator. When that deadline is reached, one of two things happens:
1. If the project has met or exceeded its funding goal, all backers’ credit cards are instantly charged and funds go directly to the project creator.
2. If the project has not met its funding goal, all pledges are immediately canceled. And that’s it.
Amazon Payments is the only processor that currently supports these requirements, and currently Amazon Payments does not support non-US recipients — meaning that you need a US bank account and address to launch a project on Kickstarter. (You can pledge to projects from anywhere — it’s only project creation that’s limited.) Many of us have been using PayPal for so long we assume that it can support any process, but it can’t. (We’re keeping a close eye on PayPal’s new Adaptive Payments service which hopes to support these types of transactions for non-US residents.)
http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/amazon-payments-and-us-only
---
It's not like Kickstarter is just giving 5% of revenue to Amazon. Amazon charges this as a credit card processing fee, regardless of whether you're using Kickstarter or not:
http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/creators#DoesAmazCharAnyFees
If they could use another payment processor, I bet they would.
I'm hoping Square.com will be able to help out in the long-term, or possibly simple.com...
Kickstarter as a concept is pretty awesome. Many cool projects have been funded through it. I get tired of the campaigns and constant requests, but it's fun to fund a friend's project. I guess I'd rather "invest" in a project though, rather than just getting a t-shirt or some other trinket in return. Would be cool to see a financial return on an investment. Like, I give $500 and if the project is successful, I get a part of the company or a dividend or something if it's profitable.
Indiegogo is another option, but the name is super annoying and they have a very similar pay structure and credit card processing fee:
http://www.indiegogo.com/learn/pricing
So many bands doing Kickstarters being like "WE HAVE TO RECORD WITH STEVE ALBINI" and it's like "FUCK THAT, RECORD THAT SHEE IN YR FRIEND'S BASEMENT"
At least not with digital media. If you make a song, book, film, whatever... that starts to get accolades and attention then you will be pulled from the underground to the mainstream. So the only way to maintain an absolutely underground stance is to be actively shitty. And even then... WATCH OUT! Cause intentionally shitty can be pretty awesome sometimes.
And if you are focused on remaining underground then you are just acting as the flip side of the mainstream coin. Because to push away from something so strongly is to be equally influenced by it.
Let's add a dash of nihilism to our bowl of capitalism and just not give a fuck if something is commercially successful.
Which is easy for me to say with my full time job and my health insurance and my perfect yuppie life with a house in the suburbs and a wife and two kids and a new sporty car just for the weekend wine tasting I like to do.
In which case, give the kids without resources a break and let's support people because we like them and/or their ideas and not because they accept credit cards and we have a weird obsession with hating certain companies over really specific dumb* reasons.
BOOM. NORMIES4LYFE!
* @joey - i like you a lot and respect your opinion, but respectfully** disagree with your anti-amazon stance, however, i don't feel like we need to convince one another to act differently, but I would be willing to discuss amazon more
**I know this little rant isn't especially "respectful" in tone, which is why I added the above addendum, cause I was getting a little excited there and didn't want any anti-amazonians to take it personally, cause I know I certainly have a wide collection of pretty dumb things I think, and some I can be convinced to change and some I can't. and disagreements are a sign of true friendship, right?
I both disagree and sort of agree about how you don't get to pick if you are underground or not. I can think of many underground successes which have plateaued before becoming mainstream, my main and most obvious example for this would be the band Fugazi. While the nature of the popularity they reached as a band could be debated, they only played independently owned venues and their record sales were limited by what their label was physically able to handle. There was no corporate involvement. No plastic cup beer festivals, no Myspace.
While not every artist has that much control over what they are doing (or is that "hands on" every step of the way) I think you can pretty much keep living and doing things on a small scale by not repressing your records when they sell out, or only booking shows in small venues, or making a bunch of paintings and not really sharing them, or making poetry chapbooks for your pen pals only.
But I think it's much harder for a person to choose a mainstream career path for themselves and to succeed. Many if not most creators are underground by default. It's not always a choice.
So by that I assume you mean turn down corporate offers from "evil" or "bad" corporations. But that's a judgement call (see Amazon Dispute). I put forth that corporations are neither good nor evil, they are simply tools. A hammer can crush a skull or build a house. Just because everyone is out crushing skulls isn't the fault of the hammer maker. (of course, the NRA says the same thing... but guns are designed only to kill. is there an argument that the same could be said of corporations? does the pursuit of profits create evil? BUT WHAT ABOUT BEN & JERRY'S!?! TOM'S SHOES! Counter-examples exist! Don't hate the corporation, hate the CEO! (see also: American Apparel)).
Is there a bit of desperation creeping into my argument/plea? Yes. I'm publicly traded. I need this to be true.
Isn't that kind of mean? If you make some music that I like, why won't you share it with me?
By that I mean that if I choose not to repress a certain record, reprint a certain book, it's often because I am "done" with it and want to move on to other things. Sure, it's not super business savvy not to repress and reprint, but sometimes you are just not feeling it? There is a demand for it, but you are not in the mood to reissue and promote the same thing over and over. Your vision and taste changes, evolves.
My own personal feelings are that I'd rather not work with corporations, "evil" or "bad". This is almost impossible to do, so occasionally I'll find myself making an American Apparel order, or even recently I'll get excited about splitting a bottle of Coke with my husband at the taqueria near my house. But when it comes to art, my motto is "art is for art". You are making a movie? You want to use my song? Well, I like your movie, go ahead. You are making an ad for your product? Well, even though I use your product sometimes, I don't want to sell you one of my drawings for your ad.
I've also turned down $500 from Mini-Cooper at a time when I was very young and super poor. They had asked various cartoonists to make a strip for them and I really didn't see the point nor connection between comics and Mini-Cooper.
I am that kind of animal.
I totally agree about moving past stuff. Even at the corporation where I work people ask about old software and t-shirts we used to make... and we're like, "Sorry! But check out this rad new stuff!"
But the cool thing about digital is you can make an infinite amount of something. Your one old song can keep on selling and making people happy. Of course, selling digital copies of records is what killed the local bookstore...
Here, Mike, just read this. (buy it with the Amazon link if you must!)
Initial reading about Appropriate Technology/Intermediate Technology makes me think of a global version of the Prime Directive.
And of course my next question is... When is the Internet appropriate?
I really like this
Here is DFW on corporations and America and individuality (excerpted from an incredible conversational monologue in Pale King, delivered by an IRS higher-up):
"Here in the US, we expect government and law to be our conscience. Our superego, you could say. It has something to do with liberal individualism, and something to do with capitalism...Americans are in a way crazy. We infantilize ourselves. We don't think of ourselves as citizens--parts of something larger to which we have profound responsibilities. We think of ourselves as citizens when it comes to our rights and privileges, but not our responsibilities. We abdicate our civic responsibilities to the government and expect the government, in effect, to legislate morality. I'm talking mostly about economics and business, because that's my area.
We've changed the way we think of ourselves as citizens. We don't think of ourselves as citizens in the old sense of being small parts of something larger and infinitely more important to which we have serious responsibilities. We do still think of ourselves as citizens in the sense of being beneficiaries--we're actually conscious of our rights as American citizens and the nation's responsibilities to us and ensuring we get our share of the American pie. We think of ourselves now as eaters of the pie instead of makers of the pie. So who makes the pie?...Corporations make the pie. They make it and we eat it.
I don't think of corporations as citizens, though. Corporations are machines for producing profit; that's what they're ingeniously designed to do. It's ridiculous to ascribe civic obligations or moral responsibilities to corporations.
Corporations aren't citizens or neighbors or parents. They can't vote or serve in combat. They don't learn the Pledge of Allegiance. They don't have souls. They're revenue machines. I don't have any problem with that. I think it's absurd to lay moral or civic obligations on them. Their only obligations are strategic, and while they can get very complex, at root they're not civic entities. With corporations, I have no problem with government enforcement of statues and regulatory policy serving a conscience function. What my problem is is the way it seems that we as individual citizens have adopted a corporate attitude. That our ultimate obligation is to ourselves. That unless it's illegal or there are direct practical consequences for ourselves, any activity is OK."
I think "we infantilize ourselves" truly resonates in me. My way of interpreting this is the refusal to take responsibility for our own lives.
That rant you had on your blog about baby-boomers and our generation's struggles as the children of baby-boomers was exciting. I think too many of us are powerless, getting out of years of college/university with no decent job options in the field we've studied... (I say "we" but I didn't go to college). It's awful, but it's often combined with being a child, or a teenager, way into your thirties. So many people I know, mostly extended family members, are babied by their parents for so long. It's almost like it can only stop when you have a child of your own. This is something I only started to notice when I moved into the English speaking world. When I moved away from home I couldn't rely on either of my parents, for financial and emotional reasons, and so even in case of an emergency I had to find a solution myself.
When I read in the other thread that so many of you still have your parents buying your undergarments it sort of blows my mind. I don't mean to judge, I am just surprised. The last time my mom bought me underwear it was totally the wrong size: huge.
I know a lady who is a teacher, she is due for retirement in the next couple years, but cannot imagine giving up her job. She'll probably hold on to it until she is too physically challenged to do it comfortably. Meanwhile both her daughters who are also teachers are out of college with no prospects on the horizon. When they run out of money/work, they move back in with their mom.
I guess maybe one of them should get an Etsy shop and the other should start a Kickstarter.
I have a poor tendency to not finish my books because I start others. I need to get back into it!
Trends are moving to allow us to be able to invest in a business in a similar way. This will change things in interesting ways.
Kickstarter is still new and I don't think we should make black and white declarations on if it is good or bad. Let's revisit the discussion in three years.
Will Kickstarter still be around in three years? I sort of feel like maybe not...
LiveJournal was started on April 15, 1999 by American programmer Brad Fitzpatrick as a way of keeping his high school friends updated on his activities. In January 2005, blogging software company Six Apart purchased Danga Interactive, the company that operated LiveJournal, from Fitzpatrick. Six Apart sold LiveJournal to Russian media company SUP Media in 2007, but continued to develop the site by the San Francisco-based company LiveJournal, Inc. In January 2009 LiveJournal laid off some employees and moved product development and design functions to Russia.
I received items for 11 projects, 6 projects are still winding towards the finish line, 3 I didn't select an item reward for, and one got cancelled, so 4 projects didn't follow through. I feel like those are decent odds (just to provide an anecdotal counterpoint).
Recently got sucked into reading this epic forum thread over at Steve Albini's internet bungalow, about the amanda p*lm*r "not paying musicians" fracas, then their forum comments get quoted by the news media and they get pissed(sound familiar?), THEN someone brings up Animal Collective dudes "send me to Mali" ks, which they realize never sent out any rewards, and they manage to publicize that(with long digressions on misogyny, public hair, and punk rock ethics)....
http://www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60267&start=120
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/228865951/transit-app-for-ios-6-and-beyond/posts/364832
(Just a joke. I'm not actually complaining, because during that one game a historic amount of injuries occurred.)