I voted this morning you guys. A lot of people live here. So the line was super long. But everyone waited for almost 2 hours anyways. To vote. Which is pretty awesome.
I think it is literally a crime that we don't get election day off work. It should be a national holiday, like it is in a lot of other countries. It's fucked up that there are people who might have to choose going to work over voting! Waiting in line for 2 hours should be festive and a holiday tradition instead of a weird slog that takes you away from a paycheck!!!!
I admit that I was being too intense in my previous posts. I may be wrong when I say these are darker times. It seems like the argument now is that we are better off than we were 200 years ago, and when I think "darker times" I mean it more in the "darkest in my lifetime" way. I wasn't around for the rest.
I like all of you and I think this is a good place where the communication is pretty mellow. And so I feel safe and okay telling you guys that I disagree when I do. I even feel safe flying off the handle. Some of us do that.
The main thing I struggle with in this discussion is how to me it feels like so many of you are coming from this place of "Just try to put yourself in their shoes." while thinking of Romney voters and I honestly can't relate. Not to them, but to your attitude about it.
I grew up in very left-wing surroundings and I had no clue until I moved to English speaking Canada and encountered my first evangelicals and libertarians. Then when I moved to the USA it was even more of a culture shock. And while I am still a newbie, and have no relatives who are right-wing, I think living in Anacortes has opened my eyes a lot. I cordially interact with Romney voters on a daily basis, I think most of the people I see in my daily life are probably going to vote for Romney. I don't think this is an exaggeration, I don't see that many people.
Here is what is most frustrating to me. I think @LT is right on when she says we should be able to say "you're wrong". When I get out of the Post Office and there is a guy at a table with a picture of Obama with a Hitler mustache standing there, how on Earth am I suppose to feel compassion in my heart for him and walk on thinking "That is just his opinion.". When I go to the dentist and the receptionist tells me that "Obama is a Socialist and he is killing our country!" I try to remember how sweet she has been in other circumstances, but I also don't question my being right about Obama not being a Socialist. I want to give this woman a history book, or a lecture about Socialism. In am pretty much a Socialist. So is the President of France. "Socialist" is only a dirty word in the USA.
I am frustrated when journalists, or just regular citizens, are trying to be objective to the point of ignoring the darkness, the poison that has been planted. I look at the facts, I get my news from a dozen different sources, and I am able to see that something is wrong. Sometimes grey is pretty close to black or white.
A dear friend of mine who lives here and I recently had big arguments about September 11th being an inside job and how vaccination is wrong. It was so fucked up and weird for us. I tried to walk away from it but my friend sent me emails with links to very homemade-looking websites backing his claims. Am I supposed to read all the sites he sent me to so I can see where he is coming from and understand him better? Is the right thing for me to remain respectful and tell myself "How do I know I am so right about vaccination being a good thing? Me not know!".
I know I come off as black and white and I tend to be, but in the case of this election I feel a lot of grey. To start with, I can't vote here. Then, Obama is far from being my ideal candidate. But I feel so strongly about women's rights that like @YT says this has turned into a single issue election for me. And yeah, I know it's intense, but a vote for Romney in my opinion is endangering the lives of young girls, it's a big fuck you to their future.
It's not about saying "everybody's opinion is valid. Nobody is right or wrong." Some people are right and some are wrong, and that is real, and should be said. I wish the news and the politicians and everybody would actually say it, all the time. "That is not true. That is wrong."
I don't think anyone on this board thinks we should never believe someone is wrong. I think it's more of a subtler touchy-feely thing of being able to recognize and even point out that someone is wrong without descending into a place of hatred and demonizing. This is why people bring up family members who they love who are voting for Romney. It's this attempt to understand that someone can be lovely and caring and you can love them, AND they can vote for Romney, and we HAVE to be able to make sense of that in some way other than just saying "well my dad must be evil and I must hate him." That just doesn't work. So we have to find another way of understanding.
Not all opinions are valid, and some people are wrong and ignorant, but like, they aren't EVIL. Somehow they really do believe they are doing The Right Thing. The problem is education, awareness, and knowledge. The problem is definitively NOT a "battle between good and evil." I mean, I think Mitt Romney and George Bush are sort of evil. But your average dude who votes for them because he doesn't know any better, is not evil. He's misguided and misinformed, or he's not thinking clearly, or he doesn't have the information he needs, or he's biased for personal reasons, or he's been led into being super afraid of a bogeyman that's not real. But that's not the same thing as being morally evil. I think talking in terms of good and evil serves no purpose. I found it really disturbing when GWB talked in those terms about other countries. "The Axis of Evil." That is not a good way to run a foreign policy and it's not a good way to live with other people.
Someone can be wrong without being evil. This is line we should try to respect and not cross. Being incorrect is not the same thing as being an unsalvageable morally bad person. When I was little I thought the death penalty was awesome. Was I evil? No, I was unformed and dumb and didn't have enough information. I received that information through gentle loving teachers and parents and then I changed my belief. If my dad had just said "you're a shitty person" when I stated this belief I don't even know what would have happened. That wouldn't have been good parenting on his part.
Those Obama Hitler people are super dumb and misguided but they think they are right. They love their children; they are kind to dogs and old people; they would help you if you fell down in the street. I don't know if it is possible to reshape their opinions and teach them and help them come to a better understanding of facts and the world, but I do know that calling them evil and rejecting their humanity doesn't do any good and just makes you feel horrible about the world, and, even worse, JUSTIFIES their belief that YOU are evil.
I say this from personal experience because this really is a struggle for me in my life, to follow this shit I'm saying right now.
Joey, you should read the book "What's the Matter With Kansas" by Thomas Frank--it is the best book for getting inside the heads of conservative voters. It is one of the most powerful and simple (and also funny and compassionate) books about American politics I have read.
I would loan you my copy, but I already loaned it to Jason Wall in 2006, and he never gave it back.
@YT: Where did I say people who vote for Republicans are evil? I don't even believe in evil! And while in another thread I made a comment about Romney being evil, I was referring to his youthful gay-bashing and treatment of dogs, which I think is fair-game.
@kdawg: I saw the movie of the same name. I watch a lot of those types of movies.
(I get to meet Thomas Frank one week from today! My intellectual hero!)
I think the world is not getting better or worse, but there are multiple axes. (the internet tells me that axes is the plural of axis, and that axises is not a word).
It's cool that I am going to be able to get married. But it's also true that media consolidation is the worst its ever been. And that gini coefficient graph is hella alarming.
This country has more wealth than any nation, but that’s not what makes us rich. We have the most powerful military in history, but that’s not what makes us strong. Our university, our culture are all the envy of the world, but that’s not what keeps the world coming to our shores.
What makes America exceptional are the bonds that hold together the most diverse nation on earth.
The belief that our destiny is shared; that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another and to future generations. The freedom which so many Americans have fought for and died for come with responsibilities as well as rights. And among those are love and charity and duty and patriotism. That’s what makes America great.
He does line up some pretty good strings of words sometimes. Been a little weak on the follow-though, but I'm optimistic about his chances for improvement.
I do not want to be hearing all this stuff about The nation is divided, one half hates the other half, "Hatred for Obama." It was a close vote. But did everyone get born yesterday, and not remember 2000? It was a similar dead heat... and one where the "winning" candidate lost the popular vote. Also... less people voted in this election than the last two elections. That is a worse problem than going halfsies on the final count.
Hey guys, listen up! Last night the other half snuck on campus and stole our mascot! ARE WE GONNA LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT?? (you guys scream "no" here)
You know what's sort of funny? the night before the election I called my dad with the hope of trying to convince him to vote for Barry, but it was to late- he voted early, and voted for Barry! He was reluctant about it, but in the end just felt Romney was too much like a used car salesman. He liked the old version of Romney, but just thought he pandered so far to the right he was no longer credible.
But this got us talking about why the decision was tough for him. He isn't wild about Barry, he thinks he is a fine guy but he gets really frustrated with big government programs that are super wasteful. Like the food pantry for instance- my dad has an entire storage shed filled with canned apple sauce, because each month a government truck drops off pallets of the stuff. No one wants it, my dad asks over and over for something else, but because of ridiculous amounts of of bureaucracy and failed government programs he'll keep getting it- it goes all the way to the USDA and their failed attempts to prop up apple farmers, etc etc etc. It's just one of many head scratching examples of how our over complicated system is steeped in layers and layers of failed programs that keep getting funded. The bulk of successful efforts to feed the poor in Montana has come from private efforts, while the government programs often get in the way more then they help. After decades working in business, my dad is firmly on the side of less government involvement- he believes that would ultimately help the economy the most and create more jobs. But he also hates Fox News and thinks people like Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin are dangerous. He is the only person I know who votes entirely based on the individual, and not along party lines. He voted for Reagan, he voted for Clinton, He voted for Bush, he voted for Obama. He avoids partisan media and reads the multi-page plans the candidates publish. Whoever wants his vote in 2016 will have to earn it! my dad is not a dude with his head up his ass!!!!!
It would maybe be great if we could have government reform instead of less government. I just mean if there was an easy way to change the sheds of applesauce into actually desirable food. Maybe that's not even possible.
I think it's possible! Community self-government! Rewriting local, state and federal constitutions! Reforming from the local-level out. Communities -> Counties -> States -> Nation The CELDF is doing a lot of work with this right now and it's really inspiring to me. Pennsylvania is doing some trailblazing and, as a result, aims to have a statewide "Constitutional Convention" sometime next year.
I like how frustrating government is. It's super frustrating because, to some degree, it represents us and we are responsible for it. It makes us look bad, or at least it makes us look stupid for putting up with it.
Comments
COME ON
well then I am arresting you
it was a figure of speech
#katebeaton
I may be wrong when I say these are darker times. It seems like the argument now is that we are better off than we were 200 years ago, and when I think "darker times" I mean it more in the "darkest in my lifetime" way. I wasn't around for the rest.
I like all of you and I think this is a good place where the communication is pretty mellow. And so I feel safe and okay telling you guys that I disagree when I do. I even feel safe flying off the handle. Some of us do that.
The main thing I struggle with in this discussion is how to me it feels like so many of you are coming from this place of "Just try to put yourself in their shoes." while thinking of Romney voters and I honestly can't relate. Not to them, but to your attitude about it.
I grew up in very left-wing surroundings and I had no clue until I moved to English speaking Canada and encountered my first evangelicals and libertarians. Then when I moved to the USA it was even more of a culture shock. And while I am still a newbie, and have no relatives who are right-wing, I think living in Anacortes has opened my eyes a lot. I cordially interact with Romney voters on a daily basis, I think most of the people I see in my daily life are probably going to vote for Romney. I don't think this is an exaggeration, I don't see that many people.
Here is what is most frustrating to me. I think @LT is right on when she says we should be able to say "you're wrong". When I get out of the Post Office and there is a guy at a table with a picture of Obama with a Hitler mustache standing there, how on Earth am I suppose to feel compassion in my heart for him and walk on thinking "That is just his opinion.". When I go to the dentist and the receptionist tells me that "Obama is a Socialist and he is killing our country!" I try to remember how sweet she has been in other circumstances, but I also don't question my being right about Obama not being a Socialist. I want to give this woman a history book, or a lecture about Socialism. In am pretty much a Socialist. So is the President of France. "Socialist" is only a dirty word in the USA.
I am frustrated when journalists, or just regular citizens, are trying to be objective to the point of ignoring the darkness, the poison that has been planted. I look at the facts, I get my news from a dozen different sources, and I am able to see that something is wrong. Sometimes grey is pretty close to black or white.
A dear friend of mine who lives here and I recently had big arguments about September 11th being an inside job and how vaccination is wrong. It was so fucked up and weird for us. I tried to walk away from it but my friend sent me emails with links to very homemade-looking websites backing his claims. Am I supposed to read all the sites he sent me to so I can see where he is coming from and understand him better? Is the right thing for me to remain respectful and tell myself "How do I know I am so right about vaccination being a good thing? Me not know!".
I know I come off as black and white and I tend to be, but in the case of this election I feel a lot of grey. To start with, I can't vote here. Then, Obama is far from being my ideal candidate. But I feel so strongly about women's rights that like @YT says this has turned into a single issue election for me. And yeah, I know it's intense, but a vote for Romney in my opinion is endangering the lives of young girls, it's a big fuck you to their future.
I don't think anyone on this board thinks we should never believe someone is wrong. I think it's more of a subtler touchy-feely thing of being able to recognize and even point out that someone is wrong without descending into a place of hatred and demonizing. This is why people bring up family members who they love who are voting for Romney. It's this attempt to understand that someone can be lovely and caring and you can love them, AND they can vote for Romney, and we HAVE to be able to make sense of that in some way other than just saying "well my dad must be evil and I must hate him." That just doesn't work. So we have to find another way of understanding.
Not all opinions are valid, and some people are wrong and ignorant, but like, they aren't EVIL. Somehow they really do believe they are doing The Right Thing. The problem is education, awareness, and knowledge. The problem is definitively NOT a "battle between good and evil." I mean, I think Mitt Romney and George Bush are sort of evil. But your average dude who votes for them because he doesn't know any better, is not evil. He's misguided and misinformed, or he's not thinking clearly, or he doesn't have the information he needs, or he's biased for personal reasons, or he's been led into being super afraid of a bogeyman that's not real. But that's not the same thing as being morally evil. I think talking in terms of good and evil serves no purpose. I found it really disturbing when GWB talked in those terms about other countries. "The Axis of Evil." That is not a good way to run a foreign policy and it's not a good way to live with other people.
Someone can be wrong without being evil. This is line we should try to respect and not cross. Being incorrect is not the same thing as being an unsalvageable morally bad person. When I was little I thought the death penalty was awesome. Was I evil? No, I was unformed and dumb and didn't have enough information. I received that information through gentle loving teachers and parents and then I changed my belief. If my dad had just said "you're a shitty person" when I stated this belief I don't even know what would have happened. That wouldn't have been good parenting on his part.
Those Obama Hitler people are super dumb and misguided but they think they are right. They love their children; they are kind to dogs and old people; they would help you if you fell down in the street. I don't know if it is possible to reshape their opinions and teach them and help them come to a better understanding of facts and the world, but I do know that calling them evil and rejecting their humanity doesn't do any good and just makes you feel horrible about the world, and, even worse, JUSTIFIES their belief that YOU are evil.
I say this from personal experience because this really is a struggle for me in my life, to follow this shit I'm saying right now.
I would loan you my copy, but I already loaned it to Jason Wall in 2006, and he never gave it back.
@kdawg: I saw the movie of the same name. I watch a lot of those types of movies.
I think the world is not getting better or worse, but there are multiple axes. (the internet tells me that axes is the plural of axis, and that axises is not a word).
It's cool that I am going to be able to get married. But it's also true that media consolidation is the worst its ever been. And that gini coefficient graph is hella alarming.
Now that we didn't have a depressing election, if you want to get energized about climate, Bill McKibben speaks Thursday. Main room sold out, overflow video at PSU Smith Center Ballroom 6:30PM Free, They want everyone to sign up with Eventbrite-http://dothemathgeneralpublic.eventbrite.com/. He is a great speaker: http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/bill-mckibben-talks-climate-change-bill-maher-video.html
I think now is a perfect moment for a big push on climate. MANDATE!
This country has more wealth than any nation, but that’s not what makes us rich. We have the most powerful military in history, but that’s not what makes us strong. Our university, our culture are all the envy of the world, but that’s not what keeps the world coming to our shores.
What makes America exceptional are the bonds that hold together the most diverse nation on earth.
The belief that our destiny is shared; that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another and to future generations. The freedom which so many Americans have fought for and died for come with responsibilities as well as rights. And among those are love and charity and duty and patriotism. That’s what makes America great.
whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/
At least he can transform it into a tattoo of a man's butt.
Maddow
But this got us talking about why the decision was tough for him. He isn't wild about Barry, he thinks he is a fine guy but he gets really frustrated with big government programs that are super wasteful. Like the food pantry for instance- my dad has an entire storage shed filled with canned apple sauce, because each month a government truck drops off pallets of the stuff. No one wants it, my dad asks over and over for something else, but because of ridiculous amounts of of bureaucracy and failed government programs he'll keep getting it- it goes all the way to the USDA and their failed attempts to prop up apple farmers, etc etc etc. It's just one of many head scratching examples of how our over complicated system is steeped in layers and layers of failed programs that keep getting funded. The bulk of successful efforts to feed the poor in Montana has come from private efforts, while the government programs often get in the way more then they help. After decades working in business, my dad is firmly on the side of less government involvement- he believes that would ultimately help the economy the most and create more jobs. But he also hates Fox News and thinks people like Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin are dangerous. He is the only person I know who votes entirely based on the individual, and not along party lines. He voted for Reagan, he voted for Clinton, He voted for Bush, he voted for Obama. He avoids partisan media and reads the multi-page plans the candidates publish. Whoever wants his vote in 2016 will have to earn it! my dad is not a dude with his head up his ass!!!!!
Community self-government!
Rewriting local, state and federal constitutions!
Reforming from the local-level out.
Communities -> Counties -> States -> Nation
The CELDF is doing a lot of work with this right now and it's really inspiring to me.
Pennsylvania is doing some trailblazing and, as a result, aims to have a statewide "Constitutional Convention" sometime next year.
It hurts to have a stake in the public world.